Hello,I've been searching for an answer to a couple of questions I have in these forums, but I can't seem to find them anywhere, although I assume that I am not the first one to have them...it's about planning an IFR flight. Actually I would like to know the process from A to Z, but here are the things that I cannot seem to understand:1. When planning an IFR flight do you include a SID after reading the weather report or is your first waypoint in the plan the first one on the airway you want to use in your flight and will you select the proper SID after the controller tells you what runway to use?2. The same thing with STARS ans IAPs, do you wait for the (approach)controller to tell you which runway to use and do you then select a STAR and an IAP or do you plan the procedures ahead, before you start the flight.3. What is the difference between a STAR and an IAP, and are they allways used together? I ask this because I saw that the IAP for a certain airport I wanted to fly into started at a VOR beacon on the airfield and at 5000ft MSL while the STAR for the same runway told me to descend to 3600ft MSL and made me end up right in front of the runway, and not at the VOR beacon at which the IAP started.I hope someone can help me with this.Thanks in advance.Peter

Hi,1. Your first waypoint is the first on the airway you want to use AND it should be the last waypoint of a SID.For example, EHAM (Amsterdam-Schiphol) has several SIDs going to the North-West, all having BERGI as the last waypoint (Hence the SIDs are called BERGI+'designator'). So your first waypoint on your flightplan should be BERGI. BERGI is also part of one or more airway(s).Depending on the runway in use, the (clearance)controler will assign a take-off runway and also the appropriate BERGI-?? SID)Of course depending on your route/initial heading, you get one of the folowing SIDs assigned:Departing -> SIDNorthWest -> BERGI-??NorthEast -> ANDIK-??SouthWest -> VALKO-?? or GORLO-??South -> LOPIK-?? SouthEast -> LEKKO-??East -> ARNEM-??2. The last waypoint on your flightplan should always be the begin point of a STAR.For example: Coming from the North-East, all available STARs to EHAM start at VOR EEL, so EEL should be your last waypoint.When approaching EEL, the approach controller will advice you which specific STAR to fly after EEL.3. Do you mean IAP (Instrument Approach Procedure) or IAF (Initial Approach Fix)?The IAF is always the last waypoint of a STAR. After reaching the IAF, the controler gives you heading/altitude directions to the FAF (Final Approach Fix). When reaching the FAF, you use the IAP (a chart) to land on the assigned runway.Hope this makes any sense ;-)

IAP also stands for "Initial Approach Procedures" which are often the transition from the STAR to the runway chart.It's my understanding that they are more commonly used in the US where the STAR waypoints frequently end 50 or more NM from the runway - and many arrivals use the same STAR no matter which landing direction.KDFW is an example.

This is how I plan my trips:- Open Active Sky 6, download the current (or archived weather) depending on the flight plan. I do this, because I only fly 'real' legs. Based on the weather infomation, I get an idea what runways to expect for departure and arrival.- I plan my route with FSBuild, which uses the AS6 data and usually suggests the correct runways and SID/STARs, but not always. I cross-check my information and eventually correct it.- I start FS and enter the data in the FMC. Once I listen to ATIS, I know for sure what runways to expect and can eventually correct any incorrect info. Usually the SID doesn't really change, unless somehow ATIS gives you the exact opposite runway. I supplement the data in the FMC with the data from approach plates (altitude/spped restrictions).- Fly- Once in range for ATIS for the arrival, I know what runways to expect and can eventually change the information in the FMC, if required. Usually I am 90% accurate in my predictions.Hope this helps ;-)

In the US there are various types of SIDs and STARs and the usage varies with the type. The first thing is to read the procedure description and see what the procedure is intended to do. You can use flightaware.com (there may be other sites with the dame data) to see some RL plans which often include SIDs and STARs in the clearance.I use the default FS9 ATC and find that it can be helpful to use an RNAV SID and STAR in building the FS9 flightplan for submission to the ATC. The main problem with these is some of the fixes aren't in FS9, but the advantage is that these procedures provide a string of fixes that are easy for the ATC to vector you to/frm. Combined with an RNAV IAP they can provide a seamless experience with the default ATC, wothout all the pointless vectoring.scott s..

Hello again,Thanks for the quick replies. That was very helpful. Lets see if I understand.Suppose I plan a trip from EGLL (London Heathrow) to EHAM (Amsterdam Schiphol). The runway in use when making my plan is 27L, so I use the BPK6G departure. Current weather in Amsterdam makes me decide I want to use RW22. In FSBuild I can select the REDFA1 STAR to reach the airfield.Here's the plan I file:EGLL BPK6G BPK UM185 CLN UL620 REDFA REDFA1 EHAMNow for the flying part...when weather in London does change I can fly the plan as filed. If the runway in use changes the controller gives me another SID to the BKP fix.When I approach SUGOL (The end of my STAR according to FSBuild) I have 30NM left to the field. I still don't understand what happens next. What I am thinking now is that the controller or ATIS tells me what runway to use. I take out my charts and select an Instrument Approach Procedure. The controller will vector me to the first fix of that IAP which could be a VOR or an NDB. If it is an ILS approach the controller will vector me to the waypoint at which the approach starts.Is this how its done?Thanks a lot everybody,GreetingsPeter

Hi Peter,yep, that's how it's usually done. ATIS should be available as far as 70m out, so you can get an idea of what runway you should expect. Of course, approach has the final word. You can either fly the full IAP per the plates or have ATC vector you until you capture the ILS.Good luck!

Hi Peter,You should file the following flightplan with ATC:EGLL BPK UM185 .... REDFA EHAM, so without the SID and STAR.When getting your departure clearance, ATC will assign you a specific SID, based on the takeoff runway. This is all decided last minute (more or less)When contacting EHAM Approach, they know your airspace entry will be via REDFA, hence they will assign a REDFA STAR to you.Bottom line: You shouldn't file any SID or STAR in your ATC flightplan.BTW: With 'ATC' I mean online live ATC, like VATSIM/ICAO controllers.However if you fly without any ATC, you can of course do what you like. EDIT:Here's a part of a SAS flightplan from EKCH to EHAM. The route filed is:TOBIS ..... EELAs you can see, no specific SID or STAR is filed in the flightplan:http://www.scandinavian-va.net/upload/atc.gif

Hallo,Reading your post, I have a very specific question. You say that you plan your route with FSBuild using the AS6 data. I also use FSBuild for routeplanning, but how can I do this based on AS6 data? Thanks,Juul Tango,Hasselt, Belgium.

Add this into the FSBuild.cfg in the appropriate sections. Of course change AS2004-ASV to your path to AS6.Hope this helps!------(FSBUILD)WEATHERPROG=ACTIVESKY2004-ASV(MS-FLIGHTSIMULATOR)AS2004-ASV=D:FSFS9MODULESASV6

Egbert, thanks a lot.I'm starting to understand this.It seems to me that when using FS9 ATC or Radar Contact you'll have to keep fantasising a little. And I'm hesitant to use VATSIM or IVAO because I'm afraid that I will screw things up for everybody...hmmm.What I still don't really understand is this... I am waiting for Navigraph nDac to arrive in the mail soon (anyone else using that software?)and I have been using the demo up until now. The charts in that demo tell me that for the airport ESPC (Ostersund, Sweden) the STAR for RW12 ends 5NM from the runway at an altitude of 2800ft and at runway heading. In this STAR the ILS IAP is sort of integrated (on the approach chart it even sais: See STAR). But there are also other procedures, a VOR/DME procedure, an NDB procedure and an NDB/ILS procedure. All of them starting at a VOR or an NDB at 3600ft. When are these used then?And...what is AS6 and what is an LLZ procedure.As you can tell, there is a lot I do not know that I cannot seem to find on the net, I have been searching, honestly.Greetings,Peter

Hi,I've got the Navigraph charts too, they are good. Better than the Jepp Sim packages.About ESPC (and other smaller airports for that matter):Sine it is a small airport with much less traffic than the main airports, the STARs end much closer at the airport. Very small airports don't have SIDs/STARs.VOR and NDB approaches are used when for example an aircraft is not equiped with an RNAV system (like FMC/GPS) and/or when an aircraft doesn't have an ILS system. (So mostly light, single engine aircraft)Or when there is a failure in the ILS system on the airport.Also when the weather permits, a pilot can specifically ask for a Visual approach, and then maybe uses a ILS/VOR/NDB approach as backup.Maybe you should download these excellent study guides (free):Instrument Flying Handbookhttp://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviatio...lying_handbook/Airplane Flying Handbookhttp://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aircraf...plane_handbook/Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledgehttp://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/handbook/

Thanks again,Those guides look very useful, that was what I was looking for.Greetings,Peter