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Guest enine

IFR and GPS

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I am well aware that in the day before GPS, pilots flew on Airways and routes between and in relation to VOR's and NDB's. These routes were found on LO and HI Charts and, given a need to fly between Point A and B, these charts would "show the approved routes" on how to get there. Now that we are in the day of GPS, can a person or company or organization set their own routes? It seems that GPS affords one the wonderful option to be able to fly a lot more direct than some of these Airways and Air Routes present.Or are Real World pilots still bound to the routes found, say on the typical Lo Chart?One more quick question... do airlines still fly NDB Routes?Thanks for the response...Darryl

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Yes, if you fly at altitude which is generally not very 'busy' (all altitudes below FL250 generally fall in this category) you very often can get direct routing and use GPS to fly it.No, I don't think airlines use NDB anymore - at least not in the USA.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpghttp://www.hifisim.com/images/asv_beta_member.jpg

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Would Airlines fly GPS direct routes? So are the Lo Charts becoming obselete and if so... how are the Transport Authorities containing the flights so everyone is not just "doing their own thing" and flying across the country in whatever manner they so choose?D

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Every flight above FL180 is under control of ATC regardless if flight follows Lo/Hi charts or goes direct. So there is no problem with "containing". I suggest you go and read some stuff on ATC operations - your questions suggest you need some basic information.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpghttp://www.hifisim.com/images/asv_beta_member.jpg

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None of the charts are obsolete. Nobody is doing their own thing. We do things the same as we did sixty years ago. The only difference is that GPS/RNAV/INS navigation equipment allows more accurate navigation. Even in the past, when traffic permitted, controllers would give aircraft "direct" somewhere way way far away over the horizon. The only difference between then and now is that aircraft now can actually find their own way there immediately while in the past the controller would give them a heading to fly until the aircraft can pick up a navigable signal for their onboard receivers.The big convenience difference now is that aircraft can navigate directly to intersections instead of only to radiating navigation beacons, making direct-to's a lot more flexible.The only acknowledgement from the route making people of the new technologies is the implementation of RNAV only departure/arrival/approach procedures and routes which make use of waypoints defined without any reference to ground navaids.The concept of do your own thing enabled by new technology is officially known as "Free Flight" to the FAA. It is right now nothing but a pipe dream and many many years away from reality. http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/4.04/es.faa.htmlhttp://sats.nasa.gov/

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Actually I have my Commercial pilot rating and am well aware of ATC operations above FL180 and below for that matter. However, limited in both income and time, I never ventured any further than the licence and just do enough flying to keep current.This is what I meant by my question.As the charted routes were established to keep a semblance of organization to the flow of aircraft, it was just a note of curiosity that, in the day and age of GPS and being able to go direct.. it would seem to me that ATC load would increase if flights could just fly where ever instead of on the established "roads in the sky".So it was just a curious question whether or not airlines set their "own roads in the sky" or were still bound to the charts. I suppose I could have asked the CFI at the club but I won't see him for a week or so...d

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B E A UTIFUL!!!! That's what I was looking for!Thanks for the great response!Darryl

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Since I got my new plane with an ifr approved gps I have flown nothing but direct across the US in all directions for a year and a half-sort of makes the paper charts obsolete.Only time I flew an airway was out west where direct wasn't possible due to altitude restrictions.The one that I thought was funny was I flew my son down to Asheville, Nc from Michigan this summer. A 2.5 hour flight (direct) in my Baron-rent a car-an hour drive to the location-all day visit-then back to the airport for the flight back and quite tired.Funny thing was-when I got my briefing and filed my flight plan I forgot to give my route of flight to the briefer (the briefer never asked when I missed it in the flight plan sequence-I had filed /G)-got out on the the runway and realized that-wondered what would happen. As soon as wheels were up I was cleared direct to my destination....http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

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To Geoff's post above, let me add that "filing direct" and getting such is not always the norm in the USA. In the hyper-terrorist-paranoid northeast USA, you will almost always be on the airways. Not sure why, but I guess this makes sense to the folks who manage so set up an ADIZ over New York, the size of the class bravo for a couple weeks for such useless things as the 60th anniversary of the United Nations.Now, now, spare your flames- Just my opinion.;-)All my GPS does for me is give me a more convenient, alternate form of navigation, along with better situational awareness due to the moving map (Garmin 430). Example: If the controller says "go direct maabs" I can just punch it in the GPS, without immediately needing to find it on the chart and tune in the VORs for it. Of course, when you file "/G" controllers already know you can do more than those who do not have GPS. Otherwise, we still carry our charts, follow our airways, etc., and I still look at the charts too.ADF is just about a dead issue in the USA. In another 10 years, maybe less, VORs will follow suit. The FAA is killing off NDB approaches by the truck load. Now, for VFR, different story. BUT, pilots get in trouble at times when they go direct without really looking at where they are going. Airspace violations are common when going VFR direct and not paying attention. ;-)Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...R_FORUM_LOU.jpg

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Maybe not that northeast coridor but here are the routes I have flown direct-of course I haven't flown to that awful NE part with those ADIZ's thingamajings...... :-) I haven't flown an airway in 1000's of miles in a year and a half-getting rusty....I do of course carry all the charts just in case-even in my pda (complete ifr/vfr/ and approach).http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpghttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/126708.txthttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/126709.jpg

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>I usually file to a nearby fix- direct in the flightplan. By nearby fix you probably mean some IAF at the destination airport right?I read Richard Coillins' article in FLYING and he was arguing you never get direct unless you ask for it and the sooner you ask (like flightplan filing) the better.Michael J.WinXP-Home SP2,AMD64 3500+,Abit AV8,Radeon X800Pro,36GB Raptor,1GB PC3200,Audigy 2http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/747400.jpghttp://www.hifisim.com/images/asv_beta_member.jpg

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It probably depends on where you live. Being just north of Detroit I usually pick a waypoint that will keep me just out of Detroit class B airspace-then direct. If they don't like it they give me another waypoint and then direct- or radar vector me to a point they will give me direct.I just flew today from kptk to y70- a short flight. My partner filed us ptk 8 dep -direct-our clearance was ptk 8 dep, sprtn-direct-again to a waypoint first. Shortly after takeoff they cleared us direct without going to sptrn-again fairly typical. I probably would have just filed the waypoint (sprtn) and saved the trouble of the amended clearance. I haven't ever filed an iap at the destination airport but I suppose that would be another way to do it.http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

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Amen on the Paranoia, how about getting stuck on the freeway because a motorcade is due

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