>I'm a big supporter of FSX and MS in general but I must agree>with your post.>>If someone genuinely purchases a product, and they, for>whatever reason, cannot use it, they should either:>>Promptly get their money back, or>receive immediate and effective support for getting it working>immediately.>>In my mind that should be the end of the discussion right>there.>>JamesAs long as their machine complies with the minimum spec (which I know is laughable), the user would be entitled to a refund, at least that's the case here in the U.K. The item would not be "fit for the purpose for which it was sold", and therefore MS would be obliged to offer a refund. I'm sure they would honour that too.

If I'm not mistaken. In the USA it's against the law to inhibit someone from using a legal copy of software that was purchased by them. I'm obviously no lawyer with that phase. ;) So as I've stated in another thread, shouldn't we be compensated for down time of FSX ? Dan

>If I'm not mistaken. In the USA it's against the law to>inhibit someone from using a legal copy of software that was>purchased by them. I'm obviously no lawyer with that phase. ;)>So as I've stated in another thread, shouldn't we be>compensated for down time of FSX ? >DanI'm no lawyer either, but common sense says that proof of legality must be established before any rights granted under that can be enforced. Hence product activation

Wow, they've got that base covered, don't they. LOLI have a receipt from a major supplier. It's not my fault that the info on the inside is incorrect(if that's the case here). Nor is it my fault that their server end is f'd up and I can't activate/register my said "legal copy" that I purchased. I'm sorry, but there has to be some recourse here. If not this crap will never end and we all will continue to pay for MSs' and anyone else's mistakes. ####, if you can sue a cigarette company for a family member dying from cancer and you can sue a major fastfood joint because you dumped hot and I'll repeat "hot" coffee in your lap. Something should be able to be done in this case aswell. If not, it will never end.Dan

The remedy is simple. Return the defective product for an exchange or full refund. I can argue your damages are no more than purchasing a new stereo receiver that doesn't work out of the sealed box. Frustrating? Sure. Bob...

>The remedy is simple. Return the defective product for an>exchange or full refund. I can argue your damages are no more>than purchasing a new stereo receiver that doesn't work out of>the sealed box. Frustrating? Sure. >>Bob...Returning for replacement is simple and defective products happen, but we are talking about returning software for a refund, which has always been dicey in my experiences - NO RETURNS. Sure, I could send FSX back to Microsoft for a refund, but I would be out the shipping fees for a prouduct that, by many appearances, shouldn't have been on the shelves to begin with...... Regards, KendallDell 8400 3.2 GHZ H.T.800 FSB/2MB L22 GB 533 DDR2X800XT 256MB/Catalyst driver - 6.9's6x Adaptive AA/16x HQ A/FIntegrated SoundDual Monitor: Dell 2405/1905CH Yoke/Pedals

Microsoft and Aces certainly don't view it as an acceptable scenario for someone to purchase the product and not be able to use it.This is a new technology in games, and there may be some kinks to work out (although so far we aren't getting a lot of support calls about it). The technology works very well for Windows and Office, so there's not really any reason to believe it can't succeed for games.Activation is obviously more convenient for the vast majority of users than CD-based copy protection. And remember that, in addition to being annoying, CD copy protection has never been perfect either. There have always been folks with disk drives that couldn't read this or that copy-protected CD.

Brian,I really must stop you there!After running up my telephone bill up for four hours, trying to understand somebody in support (All), that has not learnt how to speak english properly, having to delete a program I may have wanted to keep, plus my time in actually trying to activate FSX FOR THE FIRST TIME!!!!You are clearly out of touch with this BIG problem.

People who are defending this problem, This is crap. I can't remember having to "tweak" hardly any other games. I've never had a problem activating another game. Bottom line is, MS pulls this crap with everything they release and we are the ones that end up paying for it and beta testing for them. This is an incomplete product that was not fully tested and that's all there is too it. So in the mean time, I end up being locked out of a product that I purchased and legally bought. It's like buying a brand new car, then being told you can't drive it. Come on, those of you who are defending this, this is wrong and something should be done about it.Dan

>Microsoft and Aces certainly don't view it as an acceptable>scenario for someone to purchase the product and not be able>to use it.>>This is a new technology in games, and there may be some kinks>to work out (although so far we aren't getting a lot of>support calls about it). The technology works very well for>Windows and Office, so there's not really any reason to>believe it can't succeed for games.>>Activation is obviously more convenient for the vast majority>of users than CD-based copy protection. And remember that, in>addition to being annoying, CD copy protection has never been>perfect either. There have always been folks with disk drives>that couldn't read this or that copy-protected CD.Good, activatino is convenient for MS to monitor the activities of its users. If its that `convenient`, please ensure that Vista activation limits WILL NOT APPLY TO UPGRADES CARRIED OUT TO MAKE MICROSOFTS FSX CAPABLE OF BEING PLAYED ON A NEW MICROSOFT OPERATING SYSTEM. In other words, if you upgrade mobo, HD, or even other najor component to run FSX after installation of Vista, it will not count against the number of available activations against the license. Otherwise, the laws of natural justice are not being served, MS customers are unable to be able to use the product in the environment for which it was designed and therefore every consumer who has purchased FSX for use with XP is entitled to a refund.Allcott

>Ahh, so you just proved my point. Copy protection is here to>stay, however, Nasty system harming copy protection like>Starforce was defeated by the public, for sticking to their>guns.I don't think anyone really expects "copy protection" to vanish completely. Just having it done in a sane way would be nice.>We might as well get used to it, but someone will ALWAYS>figure out how to break it, and exploit it. Normally like youWhich is what MS et al should slowly get used to (after decades of it being proven over and over again). There is no perfect protection, there never will be, and they need to find a good BALANCE between protecting their business interests (oops, that should be "intellectual property", my bad) and their customers' interests. Else there will be no business left before long. Which would be kind of stupid for everyone involved.Methinks lately the issue of balance has been getting out of sight.Regards,http://www.bremmekamp.com/img/misc/avsim.jpg

History shows that software products which are interesting for some will be cracked somehow and spread in the Internet. The question is not if there'll be a crack but rather when it will be available.So, in fact protection mechanisms in reality don't do protect. They only punish legitimate customers by putting burdens of disadvantages on them which make the usage of the software hard.I for my part aren't interested in spending a reasonable amount of my time to hassle with any protection mechanism and to get problems with it.I want the product I purchased to be available whenever _I_ decide it to be, and I want to have it available independently of any online connection or mail traffic or the need of unlocking an account etc. etc.When I like to watch TV, I simply switch on the apparatus and do so. When it ends in calling someone on the phone to free up some account so I can watch, that would mean the end of TV usage for me.Same goes for soft- and hardware: when I put another CPU into my PC, I don't want to re-license, activate etc. etc. I'm simply not interested in wasting my time, it's that simple.As long as there are no better and more user friendly protection systems are in place, and as long as the fact persists that crackers will find their way to unlock protected software, I'm not here to support this entire system with my time. In the end, I'm a legitimate customer who wants control over what he has bought, and what counts is my satisfaction with the product. I don't live my life for some protection mechanism or for the reason to comply with the prerequisites needed to unlock it.So, I do my best to make the software I legally purchased available to me the way I want it to be. That means to use cracked versions. It's clear that I'm glad cracked software exists. And I make use of it. Not that I use unlicensed software or support the distribution of illegal copies in general, but as I said I have paid for it, and as a consequence I want to have it available in a form which frees me from the cumbersome protection mechanisms.If the protection one day will mean a complete overload, I'll quit that ship and no software company will get my money anymore. So it's their turn to decide whether they like to make a deal with me or not. Believe it or not: the freedom to agree in a deal is mine, and I am the only one to decide about the conditions for an agreement. I my conditions aren't met, I let the box in the store, I'll not download the software etc.I'm lucky to work for a big company, so that when Vista will arrive, I will have an enterprise version of it which won't have all the restrictions of end user versions. And I swear, if there will be a crack for it, I'll be using it. I will at that time have paid for my license of Vista, so I see it as my right to protect my investment in a reasonable way.We don't live in a world where everybody is fair and pays what he wants, evil is everywhere and it's only a consequence that individuals like me fight against the attempts of companies who try to make their products unbreakable and force everybody to pay for it, which naturally badly fails and only punishes the ones who try to be fair.That's no excuse, it's simply the world we live in, and as long as I can, I'll try to make my life as easy as I can. I don't harm anyone in the end, nor do I do something completely wrong or illegal in the deeper sense. Maybe I disregard some small points of license terms, but hey, I pay for it (that's what the producers are interested in in the first place), and the one who never fails should throw the first stone.By prosecuting legal customers who do like me you don't stop any cracker from seeding illegal copies in the internet, you only shy loyal customers away.Because of the nature of today's people in our culture, it's pretty illusory to believe the bad individuals will go. Stuff is in the internet even if it's so sensible and expensive like brand new Hollywood movies where only a small amount of individuals have access to the master tapes. Evil is ever and everywhere, and it is here to stay. So will crackers.I see the only chance to just ignore the crackers in the future (it's like Don Quijote's battle against the windmills) and to trust in loyal customers. In the end, that's all one can do. You'll never succeed to successfully show a cracker your intention to fight against illegal cracking of software protection: increasing levels of protection for a die-hard cracker mean increasing levels of attraction to crack that protection. Someone who protects software for crackers I guess is an enemy who needs to be attacked. Men are quick in deviding between friend and foe, so it's like a welcome war where the crackers always win. Best to not make war and let them alone. Accept and arrange with what you can't overcome.Last word: I have paid for my FSX, and I have the cracked version available as well. Guess what I'm going to use. Now, am I a real bad guy? C'm on, developers will need to open their eyes wide and forget about protecting their work. Times have changed, and there's no real protection for nothing (if a terrorist wants to have some Plutonium, who do you think will hinder him to buy some somewhere? And there are armed forces in that game, not only some harmless software companies.). The only risk is to make potential customers not to buy someone's product -- the worst thing that can happen to someone who has something to sell.Andreas

Well, it seems my post pretty much generated more of the same discussion on this issue, but I am heartened to see that even some diehard "my MS, right or wrong" supporters have paused to think about this a bit more.First, before I forget, I want to say something about CD-in-the-drive type copy protection. Over time I have read countless ludicrously silly complaints about this from people who say their CD is scratched beyond recognition from

I again give you activation problem people my sympathy this is an absolute disgrace, dont forget you are dealing with a multibillion dollar corporation here.They should not have released the product in this state.

Right said.Lack of complaints is the justification for such companies that they've "done it right".Like many other of those brainwashing arguments, the discussion of software protection or not is nonsense as long as whole industries live from it (Russia for instance).It's the same lame argumentation as with weapons: no one likes them, everyone condamns their usage, but along with trade of oil, humans and drugs, dealing with weapons is one of the biggest interest of many governments worldwide.We need a complete re-consideration in the field of software protection. Nothing will ever change if only some individuals stand up and the rest act like lemmings with switched off brains.Most people in this world, me included, are more or less "good people". Why do bad to them when there's only a small number of evil individuals?! You don't hurt them at all with software protection, but you do hurt the "good people" instead.AndreasNothing lasts forever -- in the end, even Protons will split up...