Hello, where should I post a question comparing aircraft models between different simulators? (as there are dedicated groups for each one)

 

I'd like opinions about what is the nearest reality option in terms of flight modeling, response, etc, for Cessna 152, between MSFS2020 and X-Plane11.

I though the provided model in MSFS2020 too loose and excessively responsive, and the JustFlight model I just bought for XPlane11 in opposite seems too slow in response (what makes things artificially easier).

As my intention is to do a self-training of all procedures before going to real life training with this aircraft, I'd like to know which one is nearer the reality - feedback from real C152 pilots would be much appreciated.

Tks!

2 hours ago, marcelorsc said:

my intention is to do a self-training of all procedures before going to real life training with this aircraft

To be honest if you are wishing to do procedural training with a view to the real world, the flight model doesn't matter really, since you are learning the procedures, rather than how the aeroplane handles; in fact, you could probably learn a lot of the procedures by just studying this thing.

As far as flying the thing around in a simulator is concerned, whether that is in XPlane, FSX, P3D or MSFS, what really matters is things such as learning to fly a circuit properly, or how to join a circuit with a teardrop entry, how the engine works, and so on. Then some navigation stuff, as well as the ATC procedures which go with that. How super-realistic your virtual Cessna is hardly matters at all as long as you can control the thing reasonably okay, because the ratio of movement on your PC's joystick/yoke and rudder pedals will almost certainly not be a similar ratio to the real thing, so anything you learn in terms of muscle memory from those will be largely irrelevant.

But, a big thing going from a simulator to a real aeroplane which does matter, is that some people don't feel comfortable with talking to ATC when learning to fly, thus if you get something such as MCE and a headset microphone, so you can actually talk to ATC in your simulator, that would probably help quite a lot, and certainly more than worrying about whether the roll rate on your sim version of a Cessna 152 is super-accurate, because a PC simulator plane is not ever truly going to be like flying the real thing in terms of muscle memory or anything like that.

It's worth bearing in mind that you should also be careful that your flight sim does not drill bad habits into you, for example, there is a tendency in flight sims to look at the instruments too much. This is kind of understandable because without the sense of movement you have in a real aeroplane, you tend to fill in the gaps a bit for sensory feedback by looking at the ASI or the VSI to determine what your aeroplane is doing, whereas in the real thing, a lot of that stuff is gained from senses other than simply your eyes looking at a couple of gauges.

Ironically, it is this which tends to make flight simmers pretty good IFR pilots, but the down side of this, is that when you are learning, it's VFR which you need to be good at; you need your head up and looking out at your surroundings as much as possible, in order to watch out for other aeroplanes in a busy training circuit, for obvious safety reasons. With that in mind, in addition to getting something like a headset with a boom mike to enable you to talk to ATC, getting hold of track IR (or similar) so you can drill looking around into yourself is also not a bad idea. In this way you can instil the good habit of keeping a lookout and looking before your turn your aeroplane, but also pick up the habit of looking at the six pack of instruments every so often for a quick instrument scan. Getting that stuff down will be far more use than worrying about which pretend Cessna has the best flight modeling in your sim.

I can certainly understand your reasoning behind the plan. Flying is pretty pricey, and so the more you have drilled into you when you start flying lessons, the cheaper it will be and the quicker you'll progress, right? That does work, I did the same myself when learning, but instead of using a flight sim, what I did was bought a couple of the best books on learning to fly, read them both cover to cover - twice - then I got myself a notebook and a really nice pen, and I literally wrote my own book on learning to fly in that notebook, based on what I'd read, as an exercise to test how much I had taken in. Very occasionally, I had to go back and read or clarify the odd thing, but most of the time I was able to write from memory, and doing that meant I had absorbed what the books had taught me, and this meant I would be able to recall it easily when flying an aeroplane, and I can confirm that this did work.

What was kind of fun about doing that, was that at the time, I was working in Manchester City Centre and each morning  I would get a bus there, then get one back home at the end of each day; this took about an hour each way, so I would get on that bus, go on the top deck at the front, where I could rest my little book on the window ledge, and that's where I'd write my own version of that instruction book, so it passed the time on a bus journey with doing something pretty useful. I did that about three weeks before I started to have the lessons on the real thing, and as a learning technique, I would strongly recommend it to anyone.

But, back to your original question; having flown the Cessna F152A a few times, I would say the community modded one in MSFS will be the best choice for you, and that's because it is pretty close to how I recall the real thing. But more importantly, you can practice flying it in a simulator which will have scenery that exactly replicates the terrain where you will be learning to fly for real, and that will be invaluable for when you get in the real thing, because it will tune your eye to what things should look like when you are on the circuit at the right height and such, and that's way more important than how the thing flies in the sim. As long as it has the same basic controls and instruments as the real thing, that will be enough for what you can gain from the sim with a view to it being useful in the real world.

You will find that when you get in the real aeroplane and start manipulating the controls, you will quickly adapt to how much you have to move the controls to get it to do what you want and what you are used to in terms of moving your PC controllers will have very little to do with that.

Edited October 11, 20205 yr by Chock

Hello Chock!

It is not a reply, it is a masterclass! Thank you for the great tips and information! 🙂

The idea is actually to try to train both, procedures and handling the airplane. But I totally agree that no simulator will match a real world plane (not even planes match planes, as they are all slightly different). As you advised, I’ll not focus so much in the model, but still try to find the nearest to provide a more realistic experience, to be able to train things like approach, traverse winds, landing, etc, that usually require more repetition to be mastered. I really felt MSFS too much responsive, and XPlane too few – I’ll try the mods for C152 you suggested! 

I had a past experience flying, but a looong time ago – 27 years ago! I checked my PPL, but at that time I had to change my professional direction and stopped to fly. But the desire to go back remained, and finally it is time to return! So, I’m restarting from zero now! 

Also, that time I flew a very primitive Piper CUB similar (P56 Paulistinha), a very basic plane that had no horizon, no radio, no flaps, no gyro, no lights, no electric starter, not even a real fuel level indicator! The positive point is that it was a very attitude based flight, but because its simplicity for me a Cessna 152/172 seems a very complex airplane to deal, almost a Boeing! 😄

Just as any new student (I’m new again) I’m concerned with the number of procedures and sequences that we need to master and even know “by heart”, in a plane with much more things to look. This is why I’ll focus in the simulator previous training. The reason for this option is not only the cost, as you mentioned (of course important), but also because it seems much more difficult learn repetitive procedures and details in a more stressful environment of a real flight than in my desk, where I can read the manual and repeat the procedure as many times I need – then when going to real plane it will be all familiar.

I loved your technique of writing your own manual! It is a way to memorize things and organize ideas. Going for this path! I’m also already full of new books, actually all PPL (+IFR), as after all this time, although I’m not required to do a formal theory test again, I’ll have to study everything again, and also update some concepts (especially regarding rules). I’m also already reading the aircraft manuals, including all procedures, to try to reproduce them in the sim (the problem is that I got several C152 manuals, and some procedures don’t match between them...).

Regarding the simulators, at this moment my preference is for XPlane because I built a 3 monitors setup, and MSFS has a huge distortion in the sides for wide views (>32:9), that makes it almost unusable for some models (the C172 structure is so distorted that it covers the whole side window – and the purpose of having 3 monitors is exactly to have side windows!) – I’ll wait MS provide a fix for it, or maybe a real multi-monitor support (but the C152 model is usable, so I’ll try the mod). But I totally agree with the idea of flying with realistic scenario for VFR flights, as it can make us familiar to the airports we will be approaching, and even with visual references regarding altitude, traffic pattern, etc – and the image quality of the new MSFS is unbeatable! 

Very cool your history about studying while traveling to work – it transformed an originally waste of time in something useful and also pleasant! 🙂

Thank you very much!

7 hours ago, marcelorsc said:

Very cool your history about studying while traveling to work – it transformed an originally waste of time in something useful and also pleasant!

Chock is a remarkable communicator. I was waiting for the 'punch line' where he would sit on the upper deck's front seat, making engine noises and pretending to 'fly' the bus... 💨

An update:

I tried one community mod for the C152, and although it enhances many aspects of the plane, I did not feel any difference in the responsiveness of the plane and controls. (MSFS C152X Realism Mod, at https://github.com/DRF30q/C152X )

But I found the SENSITIVITY adjust! I read that this adjust was broken after one of the updates, but it was fixed and working now (I didn't realize it before). It did not really change the feel of the aircraft, that still seems too "light" for me if comparing to XPlane version (more inertial), but reducing the sensitivity of the joystick about 60% for the 3 axis gave a much better control, with much more precise control for small movements, preventing the wild behavior it had before.

It's actually about immersion & procedures, not the eye candy!

We rad an Academy, Young Falcons, here in Cape Town, a 2 year every 2nd Saturday morning session to mentor youngsters with a passion for flight, culminating with a flight with private pilots who let the kids do circuits, after taking off. 

We used freeware scenery & FS2004, & had most of the kids getting their PPL's, others going into other aviation fields.

So, it's not the sim.. It's the will & immersion.