Turbulence over British Airways' hairy flight

[clayton4115 56]

THE US airline safety authority is proposing to impose its maximum fine of $US25,000 ($A34,900) on British Airways for flying a jumbo jet from Los Angeles to Britain, despite one of its engines breaking down shortly after take-off.In an embarrassing chastisement, the US Federal Aviation Administration has accused BA of operating an aircraft in an "unairworthy condition" by failing to stop the 8900-kilometre flight when the fault arose.Air traffic controllers at Los Angeles airport spotted sparks coming from one of the Boeing 747's four engines a few seconds after it took off in February last year. After contacting BA's operations base in London for advice, the captain opted to continue with the 11-hour flight on only three serviceable engines.However, the fault meant the plane had to fly at a lower altitude, burning much more fuel than usual. By the time it reached British air space, its tanks were so low the pilot declared an emergency and landed at Manchester.By pressing ahead with the flight, the aircraft avoided an estimated

[Guest Adverse Yawn]

$25,000! Lol, that'll make them think twice. Looks like the Captain saved BA $145,000. Although for BA I suppose $145,000 is peanuts too and the embarressment will hurt more.

[KevinAu 441]

>$25,000! Lol, that'll make them think twice. Looks like the>Captain saved BA $145,000. Although for BA I suppose $145,000>is peanuts too and the embarressment will hurt more.Isn't that a little bit of a leap of faith and an assumption to say that BA is embarressed? They seem a little unapolagetic and unembarressed as far as I can tell. As far as BA is concerned this is just a pi$$ing match started by a bunch of old men in beige flannel sportjackets, amoeba patterned ties, working for a government bureaucracy that is accountable to nobody. And that's not an assumption, I've seen those jackets and patterned ties with my own eyes.

[Guest jboweruk]

I wonder if they'd have levied the same fine if the plane had been American Airlines. Who let's face it seem to be involved in one heckuva lot of mishaps......

[Guest Adverse Yawn]

Either way, even if they weren't embarressed, you can bet they wouldn't even notice that fine! The diversion to Manchester and the resulting ferry to Heathrow probably cost more in terms of fuel, fees and manpower. You won't see any more engine out crossings, that's for sure!I know a few pilots and a manager at BA. Not sure I would agree with the flanel jackets view. I do think the British are asthetically challenged when it comes to ties anyway :) But I guess, relatively speaking, to people I know count as new blood :) I do think BA is much more commercially minded than it was say 10 years ago. The recent increase in the retirement age to 60 is symptomatic of that inevitible and unstoppable shift in attitude.

[KevinAu 441]

>>I know a few pilots and a manager at BA. Not sure I would>agree with the flanel jackets view. I do think the British are>asthetically challenged when it comes to ties anyway :) I was talking about the FAA.

[Guest Adverse Yawn]

Well it seems that choosing the right tie is an international problem then!

[tf51d 284]

I don't know what bothers me more, the fact, BA pulled a stunt like this in the first place, or that they think they did nothing wrong! Personally I would have hit them with a much larger fine than that. $25,000 to them is like a dollar to us! The fact that they had to declare an emergency due to low fuel indicates, this was an unwarranted risk to be putting 300+ passengers through.. I wonder if BA's attitude would be different if the plane ran into unexpected head wind over the Atlantic causing them to burn more fuel and run out and crashed over the ocean! I wouldn't be surprised to hear a number of passengers sueing them over this for the risk they took! If they do, I hope they win. That just doesn't go for BA, but any airline that pulls a stunt like this. I thought I heard a similar case in the news recently where a piece of an engine cowling came off mid flight and the pilot continued to it's destination. I hope the FAA gets them too! This is why I think that ATC should have the authority to force an aircraft to land when unsafe conditions like this happen.

[clayton4115 56]

but Tom obviously the captain didnt think it was 'unsafe' as if he did he would have returned back to LAX.

[orchestra_nl 931]

At first I would expect that no captain would take an avoidable risk, not only for the sake of the passengers or aircraft, but because the crew are themselves part of the flight and therefore running the same risk. On the other hand, I have seen enough incident reports that show that sometimes the pressure to "make it in time" leads to doubtfull and sometimes fatal decisions.

[tf51d 284]

>but Tom obviously the captain didnt think it was 'unsafe' as>if he did he would have returned back to LAX.>Obviously the fact he had to call an emergency due to low fuel indicates, he made a serious and potentialy fatal (Thankfully not) mistake.

[Guest Adverse Yawn]

Here is a balanced report on the events:http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...19/ai_n12941248

[tf51d 284]

>Here is a balanced report on the events:>>http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_...19/ai_n12941248I assumed the pilot didn't make this decision himself. He was coaxed into it, by some pencil pusher at company headquarters. The facts still indicate it was a serious mistake! BA is getting off easy here, and instead of trying to fight it, they should just take their lumps and move on. Needless to say, I won't be flying BA or any airline that has an attitude like this about this kind of safety issue!

[Guest Adverse Yawn]

I'm not in any kind of position to know one way or the other if this was a dangerous or negligent. The more I find out though, the more I am inclined to think there was nothing outwardly wrong with the decision. It seems the fuel emergency was due to a technical issue resulting in 3.2 tons of fuel becoming effectively unusable leaving only 0.6 tons available to the remaining engines. I can't judge whether the Captain of engineering should have known this would happen or not. I don't think it beyond comprehension that training does not cover all possible scenarios as it isn't physically possible to retain that much information on the brain and the remainder relies on information being presented accordingly in the onboard technical manuals. Maybe KevinAu can comment on this aspect.Reading around it seems that there is nothing unusual about engine out operations. It seems the FAA even have a regulation permitting it (FAR 121.565). In addition it is covered in the ops manual for not only for BA for other long hauliers such as Cathay. What is interesting is that the same BA aircraft suffered the same failure the following week on a flight from Singapore to Heathrow and continued minus one engine without futher incident. That should put the cat among the pigeons ;)

[KevinAu 441]

I could, but this topic has already been beat to death.http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...ing_type=searchAs far as I can tell, they did nothing that was illegal. Ballsy, yes. Illegal, no. Unfortunately for them, additional technical and environmental factors later on in the flight caused the captain to decide to land short of Heathrow. In aviation, all risk is calculated, if you only flew when everything was 100% A-OK, you would get nothing done. That is why in commercial and military aviation, the rules we operate under allow for operations under less than 100% A-OK aircraft or weather conditions. Most passengers don't realize this. Most passengers don't realize that the plane they are riding may have something or another that isn't working. Or that the weather at their destination is actually below landing minimums. But there are two guys/gals sitting up front who are trained and have the knowledge to make a judgement on whether completion of the mission objective is legal and safe. It's a judgement call on something like this, where you know your margin is decreased, but there is no legal reason to not complete the mission. The judgement that the captain makes is based on all the known facts, the projected outcome for all parties involved with each decision, and the likelihood of each outcome. That's what he is paid to do. If he automatically turns around at each sign of trouble, then he is not making any decisions at all.Obviously, if somebody has come to the emphatic second judgement that this captain obviously decided wrong because he declared an emergency, I doubt that any presentation of the facts such as the regulations or performance charts will change the person's mind. A train will be the best choice for long distance travel for this person. But beware, things can go wrong on them too. http://www.northeast.railfan.net/wreck4.htmlThe safest thing to do, IMHO, is to not roll out of bed.