PMDG 737-700 Broken

[Stearmandriver 2,296]

1 hour ago, ayousry said:

Just my 2 cents , am a RL airline pilot and almost 20 years simmer, MCE is a no brainer when it comes to simulating real world operations , and am sure this will stay the closest u can get other than having a shared cockpit with a real simmer(a shame asobo is withdrawing that) , not to mention the almost immediate support , am actually the one who suggested that a joystick binding is needed for disabling FO interaction specially when in VR and devs immediately went to work and 2 days later its implemented, all for free , didnt see that kind of support with any product in 20 years of addons and sims

 

Amen.  FS2C is kind of a comical comparison.... there is no real competition to MCE.

I didn't realize there were legal pain points to all this, and still can't say I quite understand what they are, but I understand why those situations call for caution.  Is it worth reaching out to MS/Asobo or PMDG for clarification?  PMDG just in the last couple days has posted on their forums about how any developers that communicated with them are fine... so maybe it's worth putting their claim to the test? 

Obviously I want my MCE back ;).  But also I understand what a pain this is for you and that you need to approach it cautiously.  So I hope I'm not coming off as demanding or anything (if I were the type to make demands of devs, they'd be aimed at PMDG just now anyway).  Just hopeful that it gets sorted.   👍

[FS++ 708]

10 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

Amen.  FS2C is kind of a comical comparison.... there is no real competition to MCE.

I didn't realize there were legal pain points to all this, and still can't say I quite understand what they are, but I understand why those situations call for caution.  Is it worth reaching out to MS/Asobo or PMDG for clarification?  PMDG just in the last couple days has posted on their forums about how any developers that communicated with them are fine... so maybe it's worth putting their claim to the test? 

Obviously I want my MCE back ;).  But also I understand what a pain this is for you and that you need to approach it cautiously.  So I hope I'm not coming off as demanding or anything (if I were the type to make demands of devs, they'd be aimed at PMDG just now anyway).  Just hopeful that it gets sorted.   👍

Removed as it wasn't meant as a direct reply to this specific post. See next post

Edited June 27, 2022 by FS++

[FS++ 708]

Did you guys notice that they also removed the key bindings via FMC-CDU or is it just me not looking in the right place?

 

[Stearmandriver 2,296]

1 hour ago, FS++ said:

Did you guys notice that they also removed the key bindings via FMC-CDU or is it just me not looking in the right place?

 

They've never been there in MSFS, I noticed that on launch. So, removed from P3d, yep... but not on this particular update. 

[FS++ 708]

1 hour ago, Stearmandriver said:

They've never been there in MSFS, I noticed that on launch. So, removed from P3d, yep... but not on this particular update. 

Thanks Andrew.

So, how exactly are they expecting users to fly this 2 pilot rated aircraft manually and solo, when they can't even tie a joystick button to some key combination event that would say toggle simple things like FD or AP?

It also renders VoiceAttack unusable since it needs those key bindings for anything to happen.

Note: MCE doesn't use the keyboard interface at all.

Just curious how people manage.

 

[threexgreen 3,139]

22 hours ago, charlie130 said:

Again I repeat, so Mr Randazzlo thinks a Cessna pilot can fly his (complex) 737 without a First Officer?

Dream on, its a game and nothing else, certainly not a complex jetliner sim! Just a game! If was a true simulation, youd never get it off the tarmac!

This doesn't make any sense though. The 737 in MSFS simulates just how the real 737 works and it's just the same to fly as a single pilot as any real, modern aircraft is. You can absolutely get it off the tarmac as a singe pilot. What you're doing in the simulator flying on your own is just what you would be doing in the real world if your F/O were incapacitated, which is very high workload but entirely manageable. It's not like aircraft are doomed when one pilot falls sick. All that's "wrong" in flying FS aircraft alone is that it's not how it's done IRL, but that doesn't mean the addon is less complex because of it.

2 hours ago, FS++ said:

So, how exactly are they expecting users to fly this 2 pilot rated aircraft manually and solo, when they can't even tie a joystick button to some key combination event that would say toggle simple things like FD or AP?

You can use all kinds of MSFS key bindings to work with any addon aircraft. You don't really need any custom developer key binding menu. I have a full 737 yoke and throttle quadrant and never used PMDG's key bindings in P3D or FSX. That said, the PMDG key binding options were mostly stuff like opening doors anyway, at least I don't recall any option for things like autopilot or any other system.

[threexgreen 3,139]

@FS++ Thank you for the link btw. I guess I can just install the package over the existing installation?

If PMDG had to change something in their aircraft to follow through with SDK development I won't blame them for that since I have no clue if it could be done while keeping the interaction with the old SDK alive at the same time. What I find very irritating though is that they didn't say a word in advance to warn people that their hardware and/or software might not work after updating. I was purely lucky in that I forgot to update the aircraft before my flight on Saturday and thought one more flight with laggy animations isn't going to hurt. I was lucky again that I stumbled upon this thread when I was bored during cruise.

Sorry if I'm being a bit dense, but I still don't entirely get the situation. Can MCE still be fully interfaced with the 737 even after this update via the MS/Asobo SDK? What I think I understood is that it can be and within just a week too but there's a potential legal risk which is why this won't be done until the new SDK is out. Correct?

[FS++ 708]

1 hour ago, threegreen said:

Sorry if I'm being a bit dense, but I still don't entirely get the situation. Can MCE still be fully interfaced with the 737 even after this update via the MS/Asobo SDK? What I think I understood is that it can be and within just a week too but there's a potential legal risk which is why this won't be done until the new SDK is out. Correct?

Correct.

Now here is the key question, since Asobo key bindings just flow to the airplane, without them using the PMDG SDK, does it mean they unwillingly breached the PMDG EULA ?? 

The latter in item k) always insisted on moving switches "their way".

Taken from EULA

k) If you create an application designed to interact with this software, you may manipulate or control the software using only the specifically provided methods included in the Software Developers Kit provided for use with this product.

That part (manipulate or control ) is covered since we are using their SDK to manipulate switches and dials.

The EULA doesn't say anything about "reading state" of switches (which is the part of that SDK that is currently disabled)

It can be perfectly done using good old FSX/Prepar3D/Asobo SDK

So I guess I was just too cautious.

The only devs who would need that part of the SDK (state read) are those who never bothered to learn anything about flight simulator core SDK and want a quick way to get data and set stuff on the plane from an outside application that doesn't know anything about the sim. The PMDG SDK is definitely the easiest way to do it as they even give you entire source code to use. So you just need to decide which items to simulate a left or right clock on.

There is an FS DJ hiding in Thailand who fits in that category and pretty sure the guy who is behind this whole fiasco (after all he engineered a fallout between us and PMDG 10 years ago by spreading lies and deception). The same guy who tried to get me banned from THIS forum a few years ago.

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by FS++

[charlie130 196]

No.

A Law Point! (Yes I do know something about law...so be aware PMDG!)

You see MCE is trying to market a product! MCE Voice Product! Nothing to do with you.

Access to an available aircraft bits and pieces (NOTE BITS AND PIECES..BITES and Megabites! UNLESS THESE ARE COPYRIGHTED NO ONE HAS A CLAIM TO ANYTHING CODE ANYWHERE!!)

NO INDIVIDUAL LINES OF CODE CAN BE COPYWRIGHTED! NEVER EVER!

AND I MEAN EVERY LINE OF CODE HAS TO BE COPYRIGHTED??? HA HA.NEVER BEEN DONE  AND WILL NEVER BE DONE!

CODE IS NOT PROPERTY...CODE IS NOT ANYONE CAN CLAIM! ITS NOT PROPERTY! IN LAW!

If a consumer (PMDG) has issues ...they bollockes up their SDK...Alter it so MCE has to amend it to be of NO use to customers who have paid for MCE!

PAID for MCE NOTE!  PAID FOR!

then its up to the consumer..i.e. MCE product customers to want a solution to the issue.

Its really got nothing to do with PMDG or AOBOO, its purely an issue with the MCE customers. Who have a claim against PMDG for their error against the MCE program!

So MCE can create anything they like and project it to their  THEIR customers without 

fear or favour...Without any fear of any come back.

ITS MCE and not Asobo or PMDG...MCE Customers have the right to a program that works! MCE have a legal right to a working program!

Go ahead MCE

DO IT!

Lets have the updated code to the damaged code PMDG put up that made MCE code Useless!

MCE customers have a legal right to a fully functioning program. They have paid for it!

It doesnt matter what anyone else says...MCE have a duty to perform and produce a functioning program!

MCE are not liabel to anyone else but their customers! Whatever PMDG do to their code, if MCE can amend their program to fix it, then they have a legal right to do it!

This is the LAW!

 

PMDG can chose whoever they like. 

MCE have merely applied CODE to their existing program!

 

PERIOD!

AMEN.

Ive considered the PMDG 737 to be a lightweight simulation so this is of little interest to me anyway, I would like a detailed H130 sim then I can go to town on it HAHAHA!

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by charlie130
polite request

[Stearmandriver 2,296]

The custom key bindings in the FMC menu were handy in previous versions for small things for which no default sim key command exists.  I used to have a keyboard button assigned to change HUD modes for instance; it was handy vs having to look down and click the small mode toggle button on the HGS control panel.  Also, you could assign a proper autopilot disconnect button instead of the way it works using the built-in sim command. 

Minor things, but they were nice little QOL enhancements. It's why so many folks on the forums right now are angry about the SDK change that broke their spad next and AAO ;).

[threexgreen 3,139]

16 hours ago, charlie130 said:

No. [...]

So in short what you're saying is PMDG can't legally prevent anyone from using the simulator SDK to interact with their aircraft? No matter what their EULA says?

[Stearmandriver 2,296]

So I have to admit to still being confused.  It's said that MCE can function without the PMDG SDK, but that there is a potential legal question about this... but then Gerald goes on to say that he was over-cautious about this in the past because it seems clear that there is no legal issue.

So the question is: are we waiting for the PMDG SDK, or forging ahead without it? 

I understand either way, not trying to apply any pressure, just seeking clarification on when we might expect a working copilot again 😉

 

[FS++ 708]

12 hours ago, Stearmandriver said:

So I have to admit to still being confused.  It's said that MCE can function without the PMDG SDK, but that there is a potential legal question about this... but then Gerald goes on to say that he was over-cautious about this in the past because it seems clear that there is no legal issue.

So the question is: are we waiting for the PMDG SDK, or forging ahead without it? 

I understand either way, not trying to apply any pressure, just seeking clarification on when we might expect a working copilot again 😉

 

The switches controls are still manipulated via the SDK as stipulated in EULA. They haven't disabled that part.

It's only the "read state of switch or dial" that isn't available, which causes the FO not to dial or switch things properly as he reeads random values via the SDK.

As you can notice right now, when you ask "set speed 250", he'll just add 250 to whatever value is there because he sees it at zero. Same for ALT, HDG

Only thing that cannot be done is fetching the CDU Vspeeds, TransAlt, Flex and "takeoff flaps". Only SDK can provide those.

The workaround would be for you to either enter the correct values in MCE UI (monitor tab), or verbally state "our v one is XXX" so Fo can be in synch for call-outs.

Plan B is already in action.

The decision to publish the "anti-cripple edition" will be taken this Saturday.🙂

 

[threexgreen 3,139]

On 6/30/2022 at 12:56 PM, FS++ said:

The decision to publish the "anti-cripple edition" will be taken this Saturday.🙂

So what's the decision gonna be? (Yes, I showed up today just to ask this question...)

[FS++ 708]

2 hours ago, threegreen said:

So what's the decision gonna be? (Yes, I showed up today just to ask this question...)

Business common sense dictates customer care must come first. Therefore released it is

http://www.multicrewxp.com/mce.zip

If the forum blocks access to the link, manually copy the line above and paste it to your browser address field. Tis is V2.9.7.2