FO radio transmissions not excepted by PF3

[d.tsakiris 418]

Hi Gerald, could you please let us know here as soon as this issue is fixed, and with which version of MCE the fix is being released? Thanks!

[FS++ 708]

18 hours ago, d.tsakiris said:

Hi Gerald, could you please let us know here as soon as this issue is fixed, and with which version of MCE the fix is being released? Thanks!

Should receive a download link via e-mail today, assuming e-mail address is still *****is@gmx.net

 

[Fighter Guy 11]

On 9/7/2022 at 11:05 PM, Fighter Guy said:

I posted this also in the MCE PF3 thread, but haven't received a response yet. If your PF3 was recently updated this might be the cause.

 

Hi Gerald,

 

FYI, PF3 had an update a couple of days ago and now the MCE copilot is not giving the proper frequencies when requested (i.e. ground, tower, clearance delivery). Here is one of the new changes in PF3 ver 3.17.0 that might be applicable to the problem.

"CHANGED the location where the PF3_Freqs.dat file is created. This used to be in a folder named PF3_Display which was created inside the main FS folder. However, since the PF3 Display utility no longer requires WideFS when running on a client machine this file is no longer accessed directly. Subsequently, we now create this file in the main PF3\Data folder."

 

Tony J

For those using PF3, this issue has been addressed by Dave March on the PF3 website. He released a beta update to 3.19.0. 

"CHANGED the location of the PF3_Freqs.dat so it's now back to the original PF3_Display folder (within your FS folder). This is for those using MCE, which expects to find the file in that location. Apologies for changing it in 3.17.0, I should have known about MCE's requirement... probably did... just forgot! We've left the copy in the PF3/Data folder too."

Tony J

[BerndB 349]

Gerald, as you can see, we try to do our best to keep the interaction of MCE to PF3 as best as it was. I have also reported the issue of the start of this thread to Dave March and he did some investigations why it happen that MCE isn´t able to establish initial contact at the first try and reliable. It seems there is a timing issue of the hotkey sent by MCE and/or, that MCE seem not always sent the roger hotkey after advise by ATC.

In the link you can find the thread to Dave i´ve had at the PF3 support forum for more detailed informations. Dave will also be happy to get into direct contact with you for joint debugging. 

PF3 Support - PF3 - MCE FO issues by establishing contact

I would really appreciate if you will have a deeper look into it, that we get this annoying issue fixed.

Because i don´t know if you have access to the OCS support forum, i have attached as follow my conversation with Dave.  

OnCourse Software

Welcome to our Product Support Forums
http://www.ocs-support.co.uk/forums/

PF3 - MCE FO issues by establishing contact

http://www.ocs-support.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4103

Page 1 of 1

PF3 - MCE FO issues by establishing contact

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:09 pm

by bbruechmann

Hi Dave,
i hope you allready passed thru illness and you´re on the way to feel better. I have an issue with MCE/PF3 which seems quite difficult to solve or even find the culprit. Very important: this all started exactly when the very first PF3 build was released with MSFS compartibility, but i can´t say which version it was. At that point the MCE didn´t worked anymore with PF3, but short after you, Gerald from MCE provided a new MCE build too, also with MSFS compartibility and every thing seems working as usual again. But it turned out that there is major issue since then which is really annoying.

On every, really every flight it happen quite often, that the hotkey-commands driven by MCE-FO aren´t get thru PF3. For example: PF3-Departure commands to contact Munich Radar on 123.45. The MCE-FO dials in the correct frequency (as i can monitor this via the great WebDisplay from Pointy), after dialing the MCE-FO contact Radar like "Munich Radar, Lufthansa 123 passing thru 4000" but Radar isn´t responding. Instead after a short while, Radar comes up with "Traffic at FL something, sqawking 1234, contact Munich Radar on 123.45". The MCE-FO read back this advisory and contact Radar again. But again no response instead of "Traffic at FL 123, sqawking 1234 contact Munich Radar on 123.45" and then this game starts over and over. Sometimes the contact establishes after 3 or 4 times sometimes it takes some more tries.
This is really annoying especially if this happen when you handed off to approach and have to wait for decent instruction which come much to late in that case.

Over the past months Gerald has provided some patches to get rid of this. But it seems unpossible. Gerald thought it would be an issue of loosing focus of the sim that the hotkey isn´t sent to PF3. The last patch from Gerald provided the capability of his fsinsider.dll to force the focus of PF3 before a hotkkey is sent by MCE. But i really doubt meanwhile that it is a focus issue, because, even if try to manually sent the "zero" hotkey via keyboard this doesn´t work no matter if i focus the Sim or not.

But soemthing else weird is happening sometime in PF3. If it takes to much of tries by me or the MCE FO to establish the contact, PF3 takes over by itself and contact the facility. In this case this is a little weird because it also changes the controller voice. For example: If Munich Radar uses voiceset A while demanding to be contacted like "Traffic at FL 123, sqawking 1234..." and after several unsuccesfull tries by MCE FO, then the inbuild FO of PFE takes over and say something like "Lufthansa 123 at FL 123" and Munich Radar is immediatly responding but with a different voiceset B.

And another bahavior i have watched is, in case the MCE-FO is going thru to PF3 and will establish the contact as exspected, i can hear that the controller give some advises to other AI traffic arround me, and then he talks to us like "Lufthansa 123, Roger" or "Lufthansa 123, sqawkident". But in case the contact by MCE will NOT go thru to PF3 it is allways the case that AI traffic will contact the controller like "Munich Radar, Condor 123 with you at FL200". Then the controller responds to the AI and after this i´ll get "Traffic at FL123 sqawking blablabla..." Though i can say, if i can hear radio chatter of AI planes giving their position to Radar first, the Hotkey of my FO wasn´t received by PF3. If it was received normally i can hear the chatter, where Radar is giving advisory to AI Traffic first.

Dave, you may have an idea what compartibilty setting of PF3 for MSFS could have caused this issue. Because before the establishing of the initial contact worked perfectly well by 100 % with MCE-PF3.

Important: I´am using P3D V 5.3 HF2. I don´t use MSFS or have it installed and never had it installed or in use in the past. Please let me know what you may need from here for investigating this issue.

---

Re: PF3 - MCE FO issues by establishing contact

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 2:52 pm

by dmarch

Hi Bernd,

Thank you for your very full and clear explanation about your problem. It is in stark contrast to some emails I receive that simply state 'PF3 doesn't work!'

The only thing we're missing here is the debug log, so, when you experience this issue again please attach the debug log (as explained in the red message above), with brief details as to which point in the flight the problem occurs, and I'll gladly take a look

---

Re: PF3 - MCE FO issues by establishing contact

Posted: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:19 pm

by bbruechmann

Hi Dave, honestly the simple state PF3 doesn´t work is in the same way just wrong as it isn´t really helpfull, i agree! 
I explained in such detail, because this takeover by the PF3 FO and also the pattern that the ATC chatter with AI-aircrafts differs always in the same way in case when the issue happened, could be helpfull for trace down the root cause, and let me think about that it´s may be not an issue by MCE or not only MCE, at least.

Here you are. I´ve made just yesterday a leg from EDDF to LFBO as Lufthansa 1096, squak 5364. Attached you´ll find the Debug_Monitor.log file of this flight.
Additionally i´ve attached the Clearance.log of the same flight where i have marked in yellow colour when the issue appeared. The marked line in blue is the take-over by the PF3-FO to get initial contact. I hope you can read word documents, because txt files can´t keep the markings.

Hope this helps.

---

Re: PF3 - MCE FO issues by establishing contact

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:13 pm

by dmarch

Hi Bernd,

Thank you for the logs.

I wish I had a definite answer for you but all I have I'm afraid are suspicions. Now, bear in mind, I don't have MCE installed and have never used it so it may well be something that is configurable within MCE, in which case you may well be able to tell me the answer to my thoughts.

Checking through the log it would appear that when things start going wrong the hotkeys are appearing in very quick succession or in a different sequence to when things are working correctly. For instance... here's the log output following ATC giving you your taxi instructions, which all works correctly. (Hotkey #10 is the Roger key and Hotkey #21 is the PIT key)

28.11.2022 19:55:26: 130 - ****** HotKey #21 detected!
28.11.2022 19:55:26: 130 - Set 'Execute' Hotkey #21 !
28.11.2022 19:55:26: 160 - Press to talk button DETECTED...
28.11.2022 19:55:38: 160 - Press to talk button RELEASED...
28.11.2022 19:55:38: 200 - ****** HotKey #10 detected!
28.11.2022 19:55:38: 200 - Set 'Execute' Hotkey #10 !

So in the above you hit the PIT key to readback the taxi instruction and then the Roger key is sent AND the important thing here it was actioned eg. Set 'Execute' Hotkey #10

Now, moving on to the first time things went wrong... here's the log output

28.11.2022 20:13:08: 010 - Transcript: 'Lufthansa 1096 Contact Frankfurt Radar on 127.95   '
28.11.2022 20:13:16: 250 - ****** HotKey #21 detected!
28.11.2022 20:13:16: 250 - Set 'Execute' Hotkey #21 !
28.11.2022 20:13:16: 270 - Press to talk button DETECTED...
28.11.2022 20:13:28: 270 - Press to talk button RELEASED...

Notice above there's no Roger key received. Is this sent via MCE or do you have to hit something?

A short while after you hit the PIT key and and this time there's also the Roger key, but it appears before the PIT key in the log but occurs in the exact same millisecond

28.11.2022 20:13:31: 540 - ****** HotKey #10 detected!
28.11.2022 20:13:31: 540 - ****** HotKey #21 detected!
28.11.2022 20:13:31: 540 - Set 'Execute' Hotkey #21 !
28.11.2022 20:13:31: 570 - Press to talk button DETECTED...
28.11.2022 20:13:43: 580 - Press to talk button RELEASED...

The PIT key will always take precedence and I guess you have the PIT setup on your yoke. So how is the Roger key sent?

Seems to me like it may be a timing issue... but I'm only guessing.

More than happy for you to share the above with MCE support and I'd be equally happy to discuss anything with them if need be... they have my contact details already.

Other than that I'm not really sure what else I can do at this stage

---

Re: PF3 - MCE FO issues by establishing contact

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:58 pm

by bbruechmann

Hi Dave, thank you for your proffesional investigation sor far.

To answer your question for MCE: Usually MCE should do the flow in it´s own, without any further action from me. So MCE works like this for instance:
To get taxi instructions i have to command verbally "request taxi" and MCE execute the nessecary hotkeys, like execute the PTT key because the FO is simulating his talking to Ground, and once the taxi instructions given, these are detected by MCE and it rogers the given instructions while the FO is verbally read back them.

In flight, when the FO has the Radios, he automatic react to a contact by radar and should roger the given advise and then do what was advised.

Assuming your agreement, i´ll pass our thread to Gerald from MCE and may he´ll find something to fix or he´ll contact you for a view down to the bottom of this culprit.

---

Re: PF3 - MCE FO issues by establishing contact

Posted: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:12 pm

by dmarch

Assuming your agreement, i´ll pass our thread to Gerald from MCE and may he´ll find something to fix or he´ll contact you for a view down to the bottom of this culprit.

Great idea!

[FS++ 708]

On 11/30/2022 at 7:22 PM, BerndB said:

Gerald, as you can see, we try to do our best to keep the interaction of MCE to PF3 as best as it was. I have also reported the issue of the start of this thread to Dave March and he did some investigations why it happen that MCE isn´t able to establish initial contact at the first try and reliable. It seems there is a timing issue of the hotkey sent by MCE and/or, that MCE seem not always sent the roger hotkey after advise by ATC.

 

Thanks for the log.

Could well be a timing issue because, fsInsider64.dll would simulate key combo Down, then UP, FSUIPC.dll is then expected to see the keys toggle and write to some offset to signal Hotkey was identified so PF3 can read it.

There are 2 option you can add to "fsInsider.ini" in \Prepar3D V4orV5\ installation folder.

[OPTIONS]

UseDelayWhenSimulatingKeyPress=1  

SimulatedKeyDelay=a_number_between_1_and_100 // (don't use too high values. Ideally, the lower the better. Start with 30 and eventually, 40, 50 ...)

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by FS++
Incomplete information

[BerndB 349]

On 12/3/2022 at 1:30 PM, FS++ said:

[OPTIONS]

UseDelayWhenSimulatingKeyPress=1  

SimulatedKeyDelay=a_number_between_1_and_100 // (don't use too high values. Ideally, the lower the better. Start with 30 and eventually, 40, 50 ...)

Hi Gerald, thank you for your reply and that you are willing to have a closer look under the hood. I have made a leg with the settings you advised and put the keyDelay at 30 and 40. Unfortunenatly that didn´t help. There was no noticeable change of the issue. It happen on this leg 5 times that the initial contact failed after a handover to a certain faciltiy. The leg was a short one from EDDF to LFLL but it felt as it was worse as before. 

It came too late into my mind, that Dave mentioned that it seems the Roger-key isn´t sent when it starts to go bad. But i´ve had the chance at approach, when the initial contact failed, to manually hit the "Roger" on my keyboard. After i did, approach confirmed contact when the FO tried the initial contact the second time. This could be coincidence, but it´s remarkable in Dave´s log that in case things go wrong the "Set 'Execute' Hotkey #10 !" isn´t shown in the log.

One question for testing: in case i change the fsinsider.ini, do i have to restart P3D for loading the fsinsider.dll, or is it sufficient to restart MCE?  

 

[FS++ 708]

1 hour ago, BerndB said:

Hi Gerald, thank you for your reply and that you are willing to have a closer look under the hood. I have made a leg with the settings you advised and put the keyDelay at 30 and 40. Unfortunenatly that didn´t help. There was no noticeable change of the issue. It happen on this leg 5 times that the initial contact failed after a handover to a certain faciltiy. The leg was a short one from EDDF to LFLL but it felt as it was worse as before. 

It came too late into my mind, that Dave mentioned that it seems the Roger-key isn´t sent when it starts to go bad. But i´ve had the chance at approach, when the initial contact failed, to manually hit the "Roger" on my keyboard. After i did, approach confirmed contact when the FO tried the initial contact the second time. This could be coincidence, but it´s remarkable in Dave´s log that in case things go wrong the "Set 'Execute' Hotkey #10 !" isn´t shown in the log.

One question for testing: in case i change the fsinsider.ini, do i have to restart P3D for loading the fsinsider.dll, or is it sufficient to restart MCE?  

 

Yes, need to restart the sim after editing the ini file. It's read once on startup for performance, rather than read those values whenever a hotkey needs to be simulated.

I assume the "PF3_MCE.ini" is edited to show

Active=1

...and that a "Clearance.log" is always being generated. Without it, FO will be lost.

Could you post the hotkeys lines found in "PF3.ini"?

Which key are you using for 'Execute' Hotkey #10 !" whatever it means. Acknowledgment or first contact??

 

[BerndB 349]

5 hours ago, FS++ said:

I assume the "PF3_MCE.ini" is edited to show

Active=1

...and that a "Clearance.log" is always being generated. Without it, FO will be lost.

Here you are, the settings of my PF3_MCE.ini:

[MCE]
Active=1
Logged=324
PF3Transmitting=0

and a clearance.log is allways generated, indeed. (the newest is from my last leg)

5 hours ago, FS++ said:

Could you post the hotkeys lines found in "PF3.ini"

it´s all yours:

[HotKeys]
Hotkey1=0112
Hotkey2=0113
Hotkey3=0114
Hotkey4=0115
Hotkey5=0116
Hotkey6=0117
Hotkey7=0118
Hotkey8=0119
Hotkey9=0120
Hotkey10=0121
Hotkey11=0122
Hotkey12=3069
Hotkey13=0123
Hotkey14=3087
Hotkey15=3086
Hotkey16=3067
Hotkey17=3089
Hotkey18=3078
HotKey19=3068
HotKey20=0072
HotKey21=0076
HotKey22=0191
Hotkey23=3084

 

5 hours ago, FS++ said:

Which key are you using for 'Execute' Hotkey #10 !" whatever it means. Acknowledgment or first contact??

As Dave March said in his explanation of the PF3 log, that i have sent you, Hotkey 10 is the "Roger"-key - so the acknowledgement i would say.

"So in the above you hit the PIT key to readback the taxi instruction and then the Roger key is sent AND the important thing here it was actioned eg. Set 'Execute' Hotkey #10

A short while after you hit the PIT key and this time there's also the Roger key, but it appears before the PIT key in the log but occurs in the exact same millisecond

28.11.2022 20:13:31: 540 - ****** HotKey #10 detected!

28.11.2022 20:13:31: 540 - ****** HotKey #21 detected!

28.11.2022 20:13:31: 540 - Set 'Execute' Hotkey #21 !

 

Please Gerald, bear in mind, that all communication in my case is done by the MCE-FO. "You have the Radios" and the only thing i do is to ask the FO for the Requests. So this "Set Execute Hotkey 10 or 21 or what ever", is done from MCE not me.

Edited December 5, 2022 by BerndB

[BerndB 349]

On 12/5/2022 at 4:09 PM, FS++ said:

Yes, need to restart the sim after editing the ini file. It's read once on startup for performance, rather than read those values whenever a hotkey needs to be simulated.

Hi Gerald, a little intermediate update: Bearing in mind what you said "...the lower the better..." i´ve made a short leg from EDDF to EDDH, whilst I´ve set the key delay down to "10". The whole leg it didn´t happen that the initial contact wasn´t "heard". It could be coincidence, but i will do some more flights on the weekend. Maybe this delay-thing is indeed the cause.

[FS++ 708]

12 hours ago, BerndB said:

Hi Gerald, a little intermediate update: Bearing in mind what you said "...the lower the better..." i´ve made a short leg from EDDF to EDDH, whilst I´ve set the key delay down to "10". The whole leg it didn´t happen that the initial contact wasn´t "heard". It could be coincidence, but i will do some more flights on the weekend. Maybe this delay-thing is indeed the cause.

Thanks for the follow up.

Also, next time it happens, pause the sim and save "Clearance.log" somwhere else to see which exact instruction was given and whether MCE is prepared to handle it. That could also be a contributing factor.

[BerndB 349]

On 12/7/2022 at 10:49 AM, FS++ said:

Thanks for the follow up.

Also, next time it happens, pause the sim and save "Clearance.log" somwhere else to see which exact instruction was given and whether MCE is prepared to handle it. That could also be a contributing factor.

Hi Gerald, 

i hope you enjoyed the Christmas days with you family and Santa was good to you all. I want to give you a little follow-up on the FO recognition issue in PF3. Meanwhile i have tested several figures of the delay setting you gave to me. But unfortunnatly that doesn´t seem to fix the issue. BUT there is always light, where shadow exists: Yesterday i have made two legs from EDDF to EDDB and return. On both legs i was assited by MCE and controled by PF3 without any flaws. The initial contact was established by the MCE FO without one single re-try needed. The difference in my setup was just, believe it or not, to start PF3 and MCE as administrator by force (right click "exec. as admin"). 

I know, PF3 and MCE, both application exe are configured as to be executed with admin rights (they have this little windows shield shown), but it seems that´s not enough. In fact, execute the apps manually as admins seems to be the "key". I´ve had no time yet to check if it´s need to be done for both nessecarly or if it´s only one of them where it makes the difference, but i will test this further next time. 

Though it seems it´s more or less another Windows hick-up cause by their strong security architecture.

I wish you a happy new year anyway. 

Edited December 28, 2022 by BerndB

[FS++ 708]

Thanks for feedback.

The one thing that would matter other than the simulated hotkeys timing is ability for PF3 to write to "Clearance.log" and equally ability for MCE to read it.

So yes, as you pointed out, Windows permissions and such could be at play.

This is why it's never a good idea to override folders pemissions in general.

By design, "mce.exe" will always run as admin (it is compiled to always request elevation), even when the option "run as admin" isn't ticked.

I suggest you don't alter PF3 installation folders permissions nor C:\Program Files (x86) or \Multi Crew Experience\ and only set "pf3.exe" to run as admin.

Frohes neues Jahr