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MiteyMT

What does ACES recommend for EH-101 engine surging?

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Two questions, in descending order of importance:1. Now that everyone is back from DevCon and FanCon, what does ACES recommend for EH-101 engine surging? Several fixes have been proposed -- does ACES endorse any of them? Here are the four that I know of, in order of increasing complexity:a. Move realism sliders full left.b. Comment out governor_pid line in aircraft.cfgc. Change the following in aircraft.cfg:governor_pid = 25.85, 0, 125.0, 0.0, 95.85collective_on_rotor_torque_scalar = 0.6weight_to_moi_factor=0.46d. Play around with even more variables in aircraft.cfg2. What does ACES stand for?

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I would just like to know what Phil Taylor's recommendation is about this engine surge?Paul S.

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Hello Phil,Thanks for replying.I Hope P12-C can drop in. :-) Paul S.

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>P12-C is the helo guy, he really should reply here.Funny Phil :)It is true that I am a champion for better helicopters in FS and moving the platform forward for higher realism overall, I am not a simulations developer...The recommendation from a person on our team that does know, is to adjust one of the realism sliders down (I think it was only the torque slider). I haven't heard anyone in the studio embrace or diminish any of the other techniques listed in this thread.Bottom line, if it works for you then go with it. Hopefully we can further develop and tune the governor so that it doesn't hunt like this in future versions of FS.

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Hi Phil,could you or someone from the helicopter team explain what the values for the governor_pid are for?Maybe the community could tweak them to a better behavior.

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Some thoughts on the EH-101. I fly a twin turbine helicopter for a living, and really enjoy this aircraft. The surging is a bit annoying, but does simulate turbine lag associated with big power changes, wind gusts, etc. However, I think it is manageable. When a helicopter nose wants to move left or right, you just stop it, and you have to be on the ball, it doesn't matter why it wants to moveIn my opinion, the here are the real problems with it's flight dynamics.When power is removed it becomes hard to change pitch. I should be able to dump the collective and nose the aircraft over, and I can't very well.The anti-torque pedals seem much to related to the power setting. In other words, I should be able to move the nose around at low or no power settings, and also at high power settings without any real change to it's responsiveness as long as I am not pulling more power than it's got. Seems to have no tail rotor authority at low power settings, and too much at high, but only in one direction.Overall, it flies like a quirky piece of crap, but I have had so much fun with this helicopter. Frigate landings, sugarloaf repair, avalanche rescue. Getting better.PS instruments are unreadable in VC when you are actually zoomed out enough to look around. Not EVERYONE flies in locked spot. I fly it exclusively from the vc, with trackir, and a top down view windowed to take the place of my crewmember. Have to hit shift Z to know whats going on, and I have excellent vision and a big monitor.

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Mitey,Thanks for your mini-review. It's not often we get an actual rotorhead in the forum to give feedback.I think you're about spot on with your review. The biggest disappointment I've found in the EH101 is the difficult-to-read instruments in the VC. (I'm one of those pilots who flys ONLY in the VC, and at first, I thought it was just me, but this criticism seems to be pretty widely held.)It's hard to fly rescue missions in zero visibility with no instruments (and since I designed one of those missions, I can attest to this from firsthand experience). Shift-Z is the only alternative, but a poor one. I hope FS11 addresses this somehow.Even with that limitation however, the EH101 significantly extended FSX's helicopter capabilities. And I'm glad Paul Lange is pushing this aspect of flight within ACES. I started designing missions specifically because there were not enough helicopter missions in the RTM of FSX. Obviously ... Acceleration has addressed that oversight in a major way.

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And I hope you continue to make us some more, especially the SAR stuff ;) The Palm90 & Grand Teton are still my favorites, really good stuff Kevin.Regards'Garett

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Garrett,Thanks for the kind comments. Although I'm taking some time off from developing just now to take care of some family matters, I hope to be able to do more missions in the future.Cheers,Kevin

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Good feedback Mitey.We intend to further develop our helicopter model and time will tell where we get with it.As for the views, we decided not to do 2D panels, and the gauges sit where they sit and are that size in the real aircraft. Most users are finding success using multiple views and maybe in the future we can make better use of multiple views without the perf impact...I am very glad to hear you are having fun with it even with it's faults.

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I mastered the B206 soon after it came out in FS98, a little over 10 years ago and continued to perfect my hovering skill over time. It served me well in the real world and now, with the EH101 Sling & Hoist capability, it is a real asset.The real thing is somewhat easier to hover because you have feel, as well as visual clues. Since there's no feel in FS, it becomes important to capitalize on the best view available. That view is the minipanel with the appropriate gauges visible.For EH101 slinging, I set up like this: http://members.shaw.ca/cbooth/EH101Screenshot1.htm It is selected by pressing F10 followed by 'W'. I also pan this view down a little so the top edge of the MFD is on the horizon when hovering. The second window is opened and left in it's default location and size. I select the Hoist View by pressing 'S' 3 times, followed by 'A' 4 times. It has a fairly restricted field of view but doesn't hide the load or the drop zone as does the top-down view. My realism sliders are full. Stick sensitivities are full and nulls zero.I use the Slingload Tutorial as my "playground" because it has a number of loads and a number of interesting or challenging places to put them. Here's a couple of screenshots of some things I've done: http://members.shaw.ca/cbooth/EH101Screenshot2.htmhttp://members.shaw.ca/cbooth/EH101Screenshot3.htmMiteyMT, you aren't imagining it. Both pedal and cyclic authority is proportional to collective. This true of *both* and EH101 and R22. The R22 has always had this problem. The B206 had it in FS2000 only. The B206 still has most of the quirks it had when introduced in FS98 but most people have never noticed them.There are several other issues with the EH101 handling but most people don't seem to have noticed them yet -- they only show up during precise hovering -- like when placing a sling load in an exact spot.I'm really enjoying the EH101.Cal - CYXXBeta tester

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Cal,Is there a way to display the minipanel (HSI) in the VC?

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>Cal,>>Is there a way to display the minipanel (HSI) in the VC?e.g. :shift+1 and shift+2add these lines to the, before saved, panel.cfg:Window Titleswindow00=PFDwindow01=MFDWindow02=GPSWindow03=Minipanel//--------------------------------------------------------Window00Background_color=0,0,0 size_mm=456,378position=6visible=1ident=MAIN_PANELwindow_size=0.4,0.4alpha_blend=0.7gauge00=EH101!EH101_MFD,0,0,456,378, PFD//--------------------------------------------------------Window01Background_color=0,0,0 size_mm=456,378position=8visible=1ident=MINI_CONTROLS_PANELwindow_size=0.4,0.4alpha_blend=0.7gauge00=EH101!EH101_MFD,0,0,456,378, MFD

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I'm not quite sure what you mean or want.The PFD gauge used in the minipanel is the exact same one used in the VC, just larger. I know of no way to "overlay" the VC with something like the minipanel.Maybe a gauge or panel designer has some words of wisdom.Cal - CYXX

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Horst's reply is rather cryptic, but I think the information is all there for how to do this. To clarify, yes, you should be able to add popup gauges that are accessible in the VC. I've done lots of them in other airplanes. I think what Horst meant to say was this:"Back up your panel.cfg file, then open it in Notepad and add the following lines to the top of the file. Make sure to add the square brackets (which don't show up in this forum in normal mode), to the titles of each panel section."There are three sections to the file -1. The window titles at the top2. The 2D panels (the popup gauges in this case)3. The VC panel.Make the edits appropriately. I'll post the complete file below (hope that's ok). Just copy and paste the contents of the following message into a text file using notepad or wordpad (if you use wordpad, make sure to use Edit/Paste Special/Unformatted text, or it will screw up), rename it panel.cfg and put it in FSXSimObjectsRotorcraftEH101Panel after you've backed up the original version.I haven't tried this myself yet, but I assume Horst has and what he posted is correct.To access the popup gauges, use Shift+1, Shift+2, etc.Thank you Horst. Thomas[a href=http://www.flyingscool.com] http://www.flyingscool.com/images/Signature.jpg [/a]I like using VC's :-)N15802 KASH '73 Piper Cherokee Challenger 180

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// EH101[Window Titles]Window00=PFDWindow01=MFDWindow02=GPSWindow03=Minipanel//--------------------------------------------------------[Window00]Background_color=0,0,0 size_mm=456,378position=6visible=1ident=MAIN_PANELwindow_size=0.4,0.4alpha_blend=0.7gauge00=EH101!EH101_MFD,0,0,456,378, PFD//--------------------------------------------------------[Window01]Background_color=0,0,0 size_mm=456,378position=8visible=1ident=MINI_CONTROLS_PANELwindow_size=0.4,0.4alpha_blend=0.7gauge00=EH101!EH101_MFD,0,0,456,378, MFD//--------------------------------------------------------[Window02]Background_color=0,0,0 size_mm=456,378position=8visible=0ident=GPS_PANELwindow_size=0.5gauge00=fs9gps!gps_500, 0,0//--------------------------------------------------------[Window03]Background_color=0,0,0 size_mm=456,378position=7visible=1ident=MINIPANELwindow_size=0.4,0.4alpha_blend=0.7gauge00=EH101!EH101_MFD,0,0,456,378, PFD[Vcockpit01]Background_color=0,0,0 size_mm=1024,1024visible=1pixel_size=1024,1024texture=$EH101_01gauge00=EH101!EH101_MFD,6,7,280,230, PFDgauge01=EH101!EH101_MFD,293,7,280,230, MFDgauge02=EH101!EH101_EICAS,6,243,350,256, LEFTgauge03=EH101!EH101_EICAS,6,507,350,256, RIGHTgauge04=EH101!EH101_DEFIG,361,243,210,115gauge05=EH101_map!radio,588,335,190,240 gauge06=EH101_map!radio,805,335,190,240gauge07=eh101_map!eh101_map,579,7,425,320

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Here's what it looks like with the two popup gauges on. The gauges will sit there as you swivel your head around. I didn't test it with trackIR yet, but it should work. I'm going to play with the size later as these seem a little big to me. Plus they are a little stretched because I use a widescreen monitor at 1900 x 1200 (this image is reduced in size). I'll have to fix that.The Minipanel can be edited, too, to change the available gauges and their sizes, if anyone would like that done. I like the transparency of the gauges.I think I'll try to figure out how to add a view to a gauge, too, so I can add another gauge like MiteyMT suggested with a view looking out over the edge of the door from the hoist.http://www.flyingscool.com/files/images/EH101Popups.pngThomas[a href=http://www.flyingscool.com] http://www.flyingscool.com/images/Signature.jpg [/a]I like using VC's :-)N15802 KASH '73 Piper Cherokee Challenger 180

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Hi,Try this value for the governor:governor_pid = 0.5,1,400,0.01,0.01Works great for me. Missions are much easier.My results: Hunting reduced to a very tiny value, unlike the other recommended set, which I tried. This other one in the post still oscillates.With the good one at the top, throttle-indicators on the MFD never go to zero once it stabilizes with rotor RPM at 100% This is good, as it means the governor controller circuit is doing its job. Pulling sensible amounts of collective bring an almost instant throttle response to provide more torque to the rotor, also good. Reducing the collective reduces the power the engines are generating sensibly as well. I have not been able to make this one oscillate more than a few points up and down, further loop tuning might elimnate even that. The period of the miniscule oscillation is 2 seconds by about 1%. This is what I remember from working on the AH-1S cobra gunships in the 80's, which had a governor on the engine.Whilst I didn't test this value I came up with over the full weight and altitude regime, it does respond well to impulse inputs. Bump the collective suddenly up 30% and just leave it there, and the throttle will trundle up and stabilize near an optimal value. It is possible to ham-fist the collective up and kill your rotor RPM, which depending on the design of the system, might be realistic. Otherwise, maybe the torque an horsepower need to be set higher, or this one:collective_on_rotor_torque_scalar = 0.6Which on mine is set to the sensible (to me) value of 1.0.The other numbers suggested in other posts don't help my governor much.My HP is also set to values according to data from the actual helo.rated_shaft_hp = 2312A question for ACES, if you have a helo with three engines and the rated HP is X, is the total HP 3X or do you need to multiply that yourself to put it into aircraft.cfg?IE, the engines have 2312 each, would one not set the single parameter to 6936?Cheers,Joe

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>In my opinion, the here are the real problems with it's flight>dynamics.>>When power is removed it becomes hard to change pitch. I>should be able to dump the collective and nose the aircraft>over, and I can't very well.>>The anti-torque pedals seem much to related to the power>setting. In other words, I should be able to move the nose>around at low or no power settings, and also at high power>settings without any real change to it's responsiveness as>long as I am not pulling more power than it's got. Seems to>have no tail rotor authority at low power settings, and too>much at high, but only in one direction.>>Overall, it flies like a quirky piece of crapI agree, it flies like a funky piece of crap. I said as much a few weeks ago, but I was met with much dissagreement.For me the worst thing is the tail rotor authority, followed closely by the lack of attitude control when power is removed. I really enjoy flying the eh101, and I enjoy the missions. But the entire time I'm reminded that I'm fighting a funky flight model. Sure I can control it, but it doesn't feel right. I don't think aces should have released it in this condition, I expect a higher standard from a microsoft product. I hope that during the development of future FS products enough time is allowed to make everything proper. As it is now the EH101 fits into FSX gaming more than it fits into FSX simming.Imo, the best FSX helo is the 412 at Hovercontrol.

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