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jcomm

LES dc-3 v2 in my XP12 hangar at last!!

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Posted (edited)

Promo sale made it easier 😁

Now just have to study the manual and see how it goes compared to the vskylabs...

Any HINTS / suggestions welcomed !

Was missing it since the xp10 version...

Edited by jcomm

Main Simulation Rig:

Ryzen 5600x, 32GB RAM, Nvidia RTX 3060 Ti, 1 TB & 500 GB M.2 nvme drives, Win11.

Preferred Simulator: X-Plane (and seriously considering AEROFLY FS 4 too)

Preferred Airbus simulation platform: P3dv5 + FSLabs Airbus family

I also use MSFS 2020...

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, BostonJeremy77 said:

It's a great aircraft with one big fault - taxiing while using a laptop with only a Thrustmaster stick. 

I feel for you but at the same time I am glad that's the way in handles.... 🙂 

Otherwise I would feel like playing the MFS dc3 😁

Edited by jcomm
  • Upvote 1

Main Simulation Rig:

Ryzen 5600x, 32GB RAM, Nvidia RTX 3060 Ti, 1 TB & 500 GB M.2 nvme drives, Win11.

Preferred Simulator: X-Plane (and seriously considering AEROFLY FS 4 too)

Preferred Airbus simulation platform: P3dv5 + FSLabs Airbus family

I also use MSFS 2020...

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Posted (edited)

Hmmm, where are the aircraft manuals ? Couldn't find it inside of the aircraft folder ??? 🤔

Found it !

They're Online 🙂

 

Edited by jcomm

Main Simulation Rig:

Ryzen 5600x, 32GB RAM, Nvidia RTX 3060 Ti, 1 TB & 500 GB M.2 nvme drives, Win11.

Preferred Simulator: X-Plane (and seriously considering AEROFLY FS 4 too)

Preferred Airbus simulation platform: P3dv5 + FSLabs Airbus family

I also use MSFS 2020...

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20 hours ago, jcomm said:

Otherwise I would feel like playing the MFS dc3

This comment is not endorsed by LES, X-Aviation or any affiliates of either party.  

😛

Jose, you savage!

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Posted (edited)

Anyway, regarding @BostonJeremy77's  post, the two options for circumventing not having dual engine control levers and / or rudders with tie brakes make it possible to taxi acceptably.

A similar approach was used by 1C-777 in their modeling of the Ju-52 in IL-2 Great Battles, with throttles being advanced / retarded on opposite sides depending on where to one wants to turn while taxiing.

Still waiting for a slot for my inaugural DC-3 v2 flight 🙂 but time at the desktop is NILL this week 😕 

Edited by jcomm

Main Simulation Rig:

Ryzen 5600x, 32GB RAM, Nvidia RTX 3060 Ti, 1 TB & 500 GB M.2 nvme drives, Win11.

Preferred Simulator: X-Plane (and seriously considering AEROFLY FS 4 too)

Preferred Airbus simulation platform: P3dv5 + FSLabs Airbus family

I also use MSFS 2020...

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Posted (edited)

Follow up:

- this DC-3 is fighting against my lack of time to read the manuals 🙂, but I was finally able to make a short flight around LPHR, under nasty weather conditions which are fustigating the Azores islands these days...

.) Feels great, although I couldn't yet make my pitch trim work with the default XP trim assignments, while both rudder and aileron trim do (?).

.) locking the tailwheel apparently requires a specific command because the default XP12 tailwheel lock toggle command isn't working ?...

.) The mixture levers took some time to make sense to me. I still can't find in the version I have installed the:

les/dc3/engine/controls/L_mix_pad    AND  les/dc3/engine/controls/R_mix_pad 

both can't be found when I try to assign them to T.16000 buttons ?

It's also a bit tedious to always have to tick the option for "Control Mixture via Commands"  in the DC-3 SETTINGS / OPTIONS menu for each new flight, instead of that choice being recorded just like the others....

I believe this is probably all mentioned in the "online" docs, but so far I couldn't find it...

I have decided to keep both the LES and the VSkylabs DC-3... After all IRL an aircraft is not always equal to another same model one, so, I treat both just that way. I believe both models are worth having in my hanger, specially because I have a special admiration for this Classis prop.

I found on both the same characteristic that made me think the VSkylabs was not correctly portraying the "feel of flight" of the real thing, but after all the LES version behaves exactly the same way - yaw instability !

I have to find any Pilot Reports of Flight Test data on the real DC-3 that mentions this constant waving of the tail, specially at slower speeds and / or with flaps deployed. It's probably a thing of the real DC-3, and in MFS I couldn't find it, as well as in any of the best DC-3 models I ever used for FSX and P3D. The IL-2 Great Battles DC-3 didn't represent this "feature" either.

Edited by jcomm

Main Simulation Rig:

Ryzen 5600x, 32GB RAM, Nvidia RTX 3060 Ti, 1 TB & 500 GB M.2 nvme drives, Win11.

Preferred Simulator: X-Plane (and seriously considering AEROFLY FS 4 too)

Preferred Airbus simulation platform: P3dv5 + FSLabs Airbus family

I also use MSFS 2020...

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Posted (edited)

JComm - I have been looking at the LES DC-3 since it was announced, at the moment undecided as it would make the 3rd DC-3/C-47 in my virtual hangar. Like the look of it overall but very little about in the way of paints etc for this one. I noted your comments about assigning key commands for some controls.

Can I say that the YAW or Directional instability your refer to in the VSkylabs and the LES was interesting and your comment that there are no flight test data about directional instability - correct, the aeroplane IRL had no yaw or rudder control issues not was it considered directionally unstable!  Two comments here I have flown the real thing and I do have old papers and data on the DC-3 including a 1950's NACA stability flight test evaluation and report. There were some issues with respect to longitudinal stability (Pitching) caused by the Frise ailerons, wing shape and CoG and elevator control - in other words - it could be a little unstable rolling and pitching at certain CoG and speeds and required larger control force movements to correct displacement but it was not considered objectionable or uncontrollable, generally well behaved and quite controllable, perhaps pleasantly so!. There was slight rudder float (about the hinge) but nothing problematic. So for the real thing or its replication in the sim I would expect that it could get a little pitchy at certain speeds, which is why 3 pointers in this one are difficult (Ernest Gann called them a stiff legged brute if you tried) and a little untidy or unbalanced in rolling turns that is all. Never experienced that random or unstable yaw pattern IRL you refer to with the LES or the VSkylab.

All the sim models are a pain with respect to controls especially taxying etc as you needed assymmetric throttle and braking application to get them turning on the ground which you just cannot replicate with your standard joystick/keyboard set up. The trick with the DC-3 was not controlling swing but not letting it become unmanageable quickly which is a characteristic by the way of any tail wheel aeroplane and its relationship between the CoG and its length and type of tailwheel (castoring ones are simple but can get you in a jam real quick)

The yawing behaviour you refer to suggests that the overall fuselage shape-size plus control areas (Rudder fin etc) are not right my suspicion is that it is the flight dynamic math of the sim models (I noted the issue with taildraggers and MFS when the DC-3 and other taildraggers first made an appearance - they were terrible in this area seems some of those issues that relate to the design of a sim model in MFS as opposed to say FSX or now XPlane have diverged significantly. XPlane to my my mind is the most correct but not perfect either. I have issues with rudder sensitivity in the sim for every aeroplane and todate no amount of fiddling with control sensitivities etc has managed to completely fix this for me but effectively i set yaw sensitivity to being a slow change as control is introduced to a bigger change in the last few degrees of deflection seems to do it - sort of. This is one are where the Myers approach of built in braking at rudder deflection on the ground is a neat fix to help the learners so to speak but is just a pain that has to be edited out via the acf to get rid of this giving me hard braking at large rudder deflections on the ground once you get something serious as a taildragger like the DC-3. 

Will I get the LES - probably but not just yet. The AWX DC-3/C-47 is still my preferred version and the most realistic of all of them. The AWX Version is of course the original Manfred Jahn C-47 from FSX that has been completely rebuilt for XPlane, huge amount of effort went into the fine tuning the original Jahn design (gosh about 7 or 8 major updates in its long life). The team who did the AWX know the DC-3 well and work on one or two in real life in a Museum some where.

Rarely fly the Skylabs version because of its ground handling habits! At the moment do not need another problem child in the hangar!

Edited by coastaldriver
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3 hours ago, coastaldriver said:

(Ernest Gann called them a stiff legged brute if you tried)

That was about the DC-2.

3 hours ago, coastaldriver said:

All the sim models are a pain with respect to controls especially taxying etc as you needed assymmetric throttle and braking application to get them turning on the ground which you just cannot replicate with your standard joystick/keyboard set up.

"Hold brakes left" and "Hold brakes right" work for replicating what one would to with the toe brakes. Asymmetric thrust helps as well, but is not mandatory as the direction changes are mostly performed with brakes and rudder anyway.

I have no issues with the VSKYLABS C-47, although I sometimes still get bitten by it on the ground when not careful enough.

 

The AWX one looks nice, but could do with a few bugfixes. And it's oddly light on the controls compared to the VSKYLABS one.

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4 hours ago, coastaldriver said:

All the sim models are a pain with respect to controls especially taxying etc as you needed assymmetric throttle and braking application to get them turning on the ground which you just cannot replicate with your standard joystick/keyboard set up.

LES DC-3 is here to the rescue! He have included options to help controlling the aircraft on the ground, by enabling either differential throttles, differential brakes, or both, as well as allow to adjust sensitivity of the action.

https://airfightergr.github.io/les_dc3_docs/all_acfs/gui_options.jpg

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LES_signature_300px.png.fb92590eee91bc5f31a172293bd6014f.png

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Well a load of interesting points made - the control option sounded interesting enough. Ok not wanting to derail this original post so leave those issues of aerodynamics and stability and tailwheel designs. 

So I succumbed and have bought the LES DC-3. See how it goes, a lot of things about it I liked from various material about. Curious it has not had any mention at all over at DC-3 Airways. 

So will it replicate the deafening engine noise inside, the stiff ground handling and the need to really work rudder and brakes on the ground to keep it where you wanted it - particularly trying in a stiff cross wind but once they flew they were great not light on the controls but no dramas anywhere really plodded along beautifully. 

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FWIW - installed and taken for a quick circuit. I have to say this has been beautifully crafted so its fidelity is excellent the front windscreen centre pillar and join is a little sharp. 

A workout on the ground. Systems and starting is straightforward but taxying even with the help scripts from LES via the selection panel did not really help. Take off was straightforward and well it handled very well. I observed the need for rudder on the climb and the tendency for adverse yaw in the turns and the pitch control was what I would expect. So I give it 10/10 for its reproduction of the way a DC-3 handles and dare  Few quirks with mouse actions on engine controls and trims which can make it a bit untidy. I say it 'feels' in the air. So very nicely done. Did not try out the AP but then for the Sperry you have to hand fly it to the desired attitude and set power and trim then engage it, it is not a modern autopilot or flybywire.  It is the DC-3 and not the C-47 so there are some differences. 

Yep could make this one my go to Douglas DC-3.

Getting another paint job for this one is going to be a major problem. For reasons best known to themselves LES have created this one such that each livery is in effect a full aircraft package requiring an .ini file to go with the skins. That is achievable and the reason I can see is that LES have tied the internal logic and monitoring systems to each one so it is unique and this in turn is accessed via the maintenance menu (that is it is a built in Real Engine system and is logging times and in phases such as props for overhaul vs engine oil changes) Problem is there is no paint kit, so where would you start? The texture format is going to be an issue being layered DDS. Now the killer each livery is a unique build so to speak so the file size is in the region of 190-400 mb for each livery or paint or model depicted. So basically your paint will need some 350 mb. That could be a real problem trying to upload to share at a lot of places! Not a single additional paint available anywhere for it other than those supplied with the installation. Gotta like Greek Airlines I guess to fly it or Buffalo Airways.

So for the time being it is my go to DC-3 but not my C-47 that respect goes to the AWX or Jahn C-47 fairly equally with the V Skylabs version. 

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BIG THANK YOU ALL SO SO MUCH guys !!!

This is the reason why I keep polling AVSIM, everyday, the .Org and some support forums too, and using WhatsApp to stay in touch with great friends from ages of flightsimming, alwys willing to help ina rather POSITIVE way !

I am slowly learning how to use the LES DC-3, and at the same time I tried again the VSkyLabs and have to say I like it too, and all taken into consideration, features, systems modelling, flight dynamics, well, I really think the best decision is tokeep both and enjoy them both as much as I can !!!

Your contributions above were GREAT ! 

I had meanwhile also received support at the X-Pilot forums where I was promptly supported by @Airfighter, who I know and like to read from here at AVSIM since ages but was far from realising was himself an element of the LES Team !  I thought LES was "only" Goran and tkyler (?) 🙂

Well, Alexis sent me precious NACA reports to try out as soon as I get the desktop time to do it. 

Meanwhile, I will read through all of your posts above and report back asap!

Ah! I was able to finally make the mixture levers work properly !  Taxiing is piece of cake even if I haven't yet configured my ELITE Throttle for XP12 ( the drivers are now free and can be downloaded from the Support section of ELITE Flight Simulations,in case you own any of the ELITE USB HW )...

Next will be dedicating some love to the MU2 v2, which I own since release, but have never really tasted as I should!

And, ... getting the iXEG 737 - 300 !!! as soon as the sim budget gains momentum 🙂 (this depends a lot on women will, and today's Women Day !!! ) 

  • Like 1

Main Simulation Rig:

Ryzen 5600x, 32GB RAM, Nvidia RTX 3060 Ti, 1 TB & 500 GB M.2 nvme drives, Win11.

Preferred Simulator: X-Plane (and seriously considering AEROFLY FS 4 too)

Preferred Airbus simulation platform: P3dv5 + FSLabs Airbus family

I also use MSFS 2020...

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Great to here Jcomm. Still no paint kit but had a dig around in the textures etc. They are big 8096x8096 DDS files excepting the normals which are png. With the trusty DXT BMP to help got them opened in my paint program and had a bit of a play around. Going to be tricky. Never ceases to amaze me how every model creator manages to come up with either the weirdest mapping of textures or hardly any. First pass on just some colour seemed ok, the all aluminium look is going to be a pain. Plenty of time to fiddle. 

Yeah and my wallets empty this month after the LES DC-3 and the XHangar C404. Plenty of time to fiddle with it!

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Posted (edited)

I don't even guess how paintkits work 🙂  Never tried to create any myself, with a remote memory of once trying it for fs2004 to create a TAP paintjob 🙂

Regarding the "yaw instability" I mentioned in the OP, my next test flights will be made in manual weather,zero wind and turbulence. What I refer could well be due to weather (?)

It's as if i flight, specially at lower speeds, the aircraft has it's tail swinging left to right ... oscillating as if it was some weird kind of dutch roll ???

Will have to check it again, in zero winds / gust / turb.

If you could come up with a TAP 1940s paintjob - WOW !!!

0349515.jpg (1127×780) (airliners.net)

Edited by jcomm

Main Simulation Rig:

Ryzen 5600x, 32GB RAM, Nvidia RTX 3060 Ti, 1 TB & 500 GB M.2 nvme drives, Win11.

Preferred Simulator: X-Plane (and seriously considering AEROFLY FS 4 too)

Preferred Airbus simulation platform: P3dv5 + FSLabs Airbus family

I also use MSFS 2020...

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