It's nice that MSFS is getting all the ATC add-ons!

[abrams_tank 7,510]

I saw an interesting excerpt from the SayIntentions.AI's FAQ page:

Quote

Right now, we support MSFS 2020.  (At one point we had X-Plane support, but we had to remove it because the cost to support/test/maintain was significant, in comparison to the number of X-Plane pilots. We hope to bring back X-Plane support some day when there are enough people using it to justify the additional effort.

And while no details are available yet regarding MSFS 2024, we don't anticipate any issues with full compatibility.

I was curious about how SayIntentions.AI came to this decision and I saw this in Discord from one of the SayIntentions.AI devs that explained the decision to make SayIntentions.AI exclusive to MSFS, but with the possibility of supporting XP after it's out of beta:

I guess this is a nice perk to MSFS users, that we are getting the latest and greatest add-ons, because of the sheer market size of MSFS. I would hate to be on the other end of the stick, and miss out on all these great ATC add-ons that are coming out (I myself just purchased and I am using BeyondATC now). MSFS now has BeyondATC, SayIntentions.AI, FSHUD, Pilot2ATC, PF3, etc. And then there is VoxATC, which is also coming to MSFS.

It's a really good time to be using MSFS now, if you are a fan of different ATC software.  I'll say as a user of MSFS, we are definitely getting a lot of choice and competition, when it comes to ATC add-ons!

 

Edited May 14 by abrams_tank

[Greazer 1,352]

Frankly, Flight Sim should have AI ATC out of the box.  Microsoft has long spruiked AI capabilities including with Flight Sim.  It is kindof embarrassing for them that simmers have to pay a monthly fee to 3rd party company to experience AI ATC and MS has no such service at all.

[abrams_tank 7,510]

3 minutes ago, Greazer said:

Frankly, Flight Sim should have AI ATC out of the box.  Microsoft has long spruiked AI capabilities including with Flight Sim.  It is kindof embarrassing for them that simmers have to pay a monthly fee to 3rd party company to experience AI ATC and MS has no such service at all.

I think MSFS 2024 will have revamped ATC.  There is also a possibility that the revamped ATC in MSFS 2024 may have voice input as well, so we can talk to ATC like we do with BeyondATC and SayIntentions.AI. They have some 700 people working on MSFS 2024 after all.

Having said that, if MSFS 2024 doesn't have something with voice input like BeyondATC and SayIntentions.AI, I'm okay with that. I am using BeyondATC myself right now. And the price of SayIntentions.AI may come down, with the OpenAI announcement that the API costs would go down.

While I don't expect voice input to ATC in MSFS 2024, I would be surprised if they didn't revamp ATC at all in MSFS 2024.

[Lonesome Cowboy Burt 189]

37 minutes ago, abrams_tank said:

They have some 700 people working on MSFS 2024 after all.

 

This been stated a few times lately.

 

Here is the Official word:

Quote

We have over 500 team members across several teams who are working to make Microsoft Flight Simulator 2024 the biggest and most advanced consumer flight simulator ever released

Now I don't know exactly what they mean by

Quote

working to make Microsoft Flight Simulator 2024 the biggest and most advanced consumer flight simulator ever released

 But I think it's reasonable to assume that this figure includes marketing departments, website developers, social media employees and probably a host of departments I've never even heard of.

You have to read the wording as carefully as it is written "working to make" is not the same as "working on"

Somehow Chinese whispers and repetition have ended up making "700 working" on a 'fact' for some.

[abrams_tank 7,510]

14 minutes ago, Lonesome Cowboy Burt said:

Somehow Chinese whispers and repetition have ended up making "700 working" on a 'fact' for some.

Your information is old. 700 people was from the April, 2024 Twitch Q&A. Jorg said it himself. You can read the transcript here:

Quote

I think we have about 700 people right now working on the flight sim, I think, in different capacities. But that includes people like the iniBuilds team, the people that work on the planes with us. And the Gaya team and the Orbx team and Working Title team, there’s lots and lots and lots and lots of teams.

Obviously, some of them are on contract, and when MSFS 2024 is finished and maybe after the first few Sim Updates come in, those contracts will end.

Edited May 14 by abrams_tank

[Greazer 1,352]

I feel like "700 people" on FS2024 is probably a big exaggeration. If there really was 700 people working on FS2024, and then you take out the architects / leads, program managers and testers etc, you would (conservatively) have at least 500 active coding developers working on it. That would be some heck of a sim for FS2024. It is head spinning.

Edited May 14 by Greazer

[abrams_tank 7,510]

1 minute ago, Greazer said:

I feel like "500 team members" on FS2024 is probably a big exaggeration. If there really was 500 people working on FS2024, and then you take out the architects / leads, program managers and testers etc, you would (conservatively) have at least 250 active coding developers working on it. That would be some heck of a sim for FS2024. It is head spinning.

I don't think they have 500, or even 700 people working on it full time. The assumption is, some of those 700 people are working on it part time.

[Greazer 1,352]

What would be good to know is if any of these teams are AI teams 🤔

[Lonesome Cowboy Burt 189]

AT, that's very misleading...here is the whole paragraph:

Quote

[Jorg] 200, roughly. Roughly 200. Yeah, that’s right. In total, the number goes up and down because we have a bunch of other companies obviously working on this. I think we have about 700 people right now working on the flight sim, I think, in different capacities. But that includes people like the iniBuilds team, the people that work on the planes with us. And the Gaya team and the Orbx team and Working Title team, there’s lots and lots and lots and lots of teams. I think in total there’s 25 or 26. But Asobo is probably the biggest. You need to think about it this way. Asobo the center, and then there’s other people that have expertise in areas that take care of those areas.

He includes companies like OrbX, are they working on the core sim or developing addons?, all a bit of shady usage of terms imo

I guess preceding the Number with "I think" gives some leeway, its all very Loose and stating 700 working on as if its a fact (note its only simmers doing that not Asobo) is not accurate

 

 

[abrams_tank 7,510]

41 minutes ago, Lonesome Cowboy Burt said:

AT, that's very misleading...here is the whole paragraph:

He includes companies like OrbX, are they working on the core sim or developing addons?, all a bit of shady usage of terms imo

I guess preceding the Number with "I think" gives some leeway, its all very Loose and stating 700 working on as if its a fact (note its only simmers doing that not Asobo) is not accurate

It's not misleading at all. There are 700 people working on MSFS at the moment. Those are Jorg's words. Of course not all of them are working on MSFS full time. Some of them are working on MSFS part time, obviously. And some of them are also contractors like OrbX, etc.

Let's just say we agree to disagree. I am not going to stop saying there are 700 people working on MSFS, including MSFS 2024. 

If I said there were 700 people working on the core sim of MSFS, full time, then that would be misleading. I didn't say that though so I will stick to what I said, which was accurate.

 

Edited May 14 by abrams_tank

[Lord Farringdon 535]

"Microsoft is shutting four studios, including Tango Gameworks, the developers of Bafta award-winning Hi-Fi Rush".  (Tom Gerken,Technology reporter. BBC)

I don't think MS will have any problem recruiting from these studios so that a large number of programmers working on MSFS 2024 may not be too far out of this world. This all just goes to show that in the face of uncertainty for some studios, Asobo looks pretty safe which augurs well for the MSFS 2024 franchise. It seems to confirm that MS may have found a golden goose in a game that meets both the challenge and interest requirements of the Xbox gamers but also the detail of the PC aviation enthusiast as well as real world aviation students, instructors and current real world pilots in airline, GA and in 2024 some other occupations too. 

But can MSFS pull off an ATC coup? ATC exists but it is clearly a deficiency in MSFS 2020 and it's a rather glaring one considering it is as fundamental to aviation as wings are to an aircraft. (Except helicopters of course. Helicopters don't have wings and it remains a mystery to this day how they fly at all).  ATC is important to any realistic aviation simulator especially one of this standing, and it is without argument, way more important than some of the features that have been signalled for 2024, that this raft of software programmers have been spending their precious time on, ie tornados and animal herds and their migration! Don't get me wrong. MSFS 2024 will bring " New physics and aerodynamics engine, overall improved realism of aircraft (electrical, pneumatic, fuel, hydraulic system, failure and wear & tear system, payload & passenger system, deeper & wider avionics packages, cockpit tablets by default, according to the MSFS Forum pinned subjects. So it's not all  just about scenery. But all the hype regarding 2024 makes no mention of ATC even in the sense of 'improved'.  The trailers, teasers and MS Forums are simply silent on the subject.

Why is this I wonder? We do know it is a difficult task but third party providers are at the forefront of showing how it can be done.  It is interesting to note that despite us all crying out for MS/ASOBO to open the API for weather, AI aircraft, and to engage 3rd parties to develop these as well live shipping and ATC,  MS/ASOBO simply have not.  In the absence of MS/ASOBO opening API's or reaching out to third parties, said parties have forged ahead with AI aircraft implementations, shipping traffic and now a plethora of ATC implementations. And yet no sooner have they done this work, than MS announces 2024 features to include " Accurate live air traffic, Improved vehicle traffic and worldwide live ship traffic. I sense Gaist were somewhat blindsided by MS's approach to secure live world shipping just when Gaist was about to fill this gap for users. 

And so I wonder, is there something going on in the background regarding ATC, that simply may not be mature enough to be implemented prior to the release of MS2024 and thus the silence. MS has an enormous amount of investment in AI.  (The following sourced from Google's Gemini AI)...."Microsoft doesn't own ChatGPT nor the company OpenAI which is founded by Chatgpt's CEO Sam Altman....both companies have been partnered commercially since 2016 so Microsoft continues to be the company's largest investor. ChatGPT is now available in Azure OpenAI Service and you can use it by paying a little fee.". (My italics).

So, It seems not unreasonable that MS/ASOBO may just later on ,add AI ATC along with its live air traffic and live world shipping features and would explain yet again why they haven't reached out (as far as we aware) to the third party developers involved in these new and wonderful ATC addons. Unlike MS which has a direct line to AI resources, third party developers are at a competitive disadvantage in having to source the product at some cost  and pass that on to consumers. MS/ASOBO will not have that concern.

All speculative of course but the alternative is that ATC is simply not a feature that MS will implement in any meaningful way in MSFS, ever.  And that is simply unthinkable. 

Cheers

Terry  

 

  

 

 

Edited May 14 by Lord Farringdon

[MarcG 3,051]

4 hours ago, Greazer said:

Frankly, Flight Sim should have AI ATC out of the box.  Microsoft has long spruiked AI capabilities including with Flight Sim.  It is kindof embarrassing for them that simmers have to pay a monthly fee to 3rd party company to experience AI ATC and MS has no such service at all.

IIRC there was a job advert awhile ago for an ATC person to work at Asobo, maybe they filled that position in preparation for MSFS2024 default ATC.

[abrams_tank 7,510]

18 minutes ago, Lord Farringdon said:

"Microsoft is shutting four studios, including Tango Gameworks, the developers of Bafta award-winning Hi-Fi Rush".  (Tom Gerken,Technology reporter. BBC)

I don't think MS will have any problem recruiting from these studios so that a large number of programmers working on MSFS 2024 may not be too far out of this world. This all just goes to show that in the face of uncertainty for some studios, Asobo looks pretty safe which augurs well for the MSFS 2024 franchise. It seems to confirm that MS may have found a golden goose in a game that meets both the challenge and interest requirements of the Xbox gamers but also the detail of the PC aviation enthusiast as well as real world aviation students, instructors and current real world pilots in airline, GA and in 2024 some other occupations too. 

But can MSFS pull off an ATC coup? ATC exists but it is clearly a deficiency in MSFS 2020 and it's a rather glaring one considering it is as fundamental to aviation as wings are to an aircraft. (Except helicopters of course. Helicopters don't have wings and it remains a mystery to this day how they fly at all).  ATC is important to any realistic aviation simulator especially one of this standing, and it is without argument, way more important than some of the features that have been signalled for 2024, that this raft of software programmers have been spending their precious time on, ie tornados and animal herds and their migration! Don't get me wrong. MSFS 2024 will bring " New physics and aerodynamics engine, overall improved realism of aircraft (electrical, pneumatic, fuel, hydraulic system, failure and wear & tear system, payload & passenger system, deeper & wider avionics packages, cockpit tablets by default, according to the MSFS Forum pinned subjects. So it's not all  just about scenery. But all the hype regarding 2024 makes no mention of ATC even in the sense of 'improved'.  The trailers, teasers and MS Forums are simply silent on the subject.

Why is this I wonder? We do know it is a difficult task but third party providers are at the forefront of showing how it can be done.  It is interesting to note that despite us all crying out for MS/ASOBO to open the API for weather, AI aircraft, and to engage 3rd parties to develop these as well live shipping and ATC,  MS/ASOBO simply have not.  In the absence of MS/ASOBO opening API's or reaching out to third parties, said parties have forged ahead with AI aircraft implementations, shipping traffic and now a plethora of ATC implementations. And yet no sooner have they done this work, than MS announces 2024 features to include " Accurate live air traffic, Improved vehicle traffic and worldwide live ship traffic. I sense Gaist were somewhat blindsided by MS's approach to secure live world shipping just when Gaist was about to fill this gap for users. 

And so I wonder, is there something going on in the background regarding ATC, that simply may not be mature enough to be implemented prior to the release of MS2024 and thus the silence. MS has an enormous amount of investment in AI.  (The following sourced from Google's Gemini AI)...."Microsoft doesn't own ChatGPT nor the company OpenAI which is founded by Chatgpt's CEO Sam Altman....both companies have been partnered commercially since 2016 so Microsoft continues to be the company's largest investor. ChatGPT is now available in Azure OpenAI Service and you can use it by paying a little fee.". (My italics).

So, It seems not unreasonable that MS/ASOBO may just later on ,add AI ATC along with its live air traffic and live world shipping features and would explain yet again why they haven't reached out (as far as we aware) to the third party developers involved in these new and wonderful ATC addons. Unlike MS which has a direct line to AI resources, third party developers are at a competitive disadvantage in having to source the product at some cost  and pass that on to consumers. MS/ASOBO will not have that concern.

All speculative of course but the alternative is that ATC is simply not a feature that MS will implement in any meaningful way in MSFS, ever.  And that is simply unthinkable. 

Cheers

Terry 

To be fair, the possibilities of AI ATC is rather new. I think even SayIntentions.AI started last year? Maybe Jorg isn't an AI specialist and didn't know in what way that AI could be leveraged to make ATC programs like SayIntentions.AI, when he started the plan for MSFS 2024.  Until SayIntentions showed how ChatGPT could be leveraged to make a decent ATC add-on, it was unknown what was possible. Especially since companies like SayIntentions.AI cannot modify the core ChatGPT engine, they rely on the ChatGPT API.

But now it's becoming more and more apparent how ChatGPT can be leveraged to make a decent ATC add-on, with the work that SayIntentions.AI has done. Still, when Jorg and his team started on the roadmap for MSFS 2024, I'm not so sure they knew what was possible with ChatGPT and ATC.  It's still a fast developing area.

[Langeveldt 294]

I don't see the point in ATC when it cannot control or even be aware of other aircraft. (I dont blame Beyond ATC as the community wanted the product before it had this capability).

I'm using the flawed, default ATC.  FSHud is great but stutters a bit with even say 20 or 30 aircraft. 

Edited May 14 by Langeveldt

[Krakin 5,885]

Well that's further proof of what has been obvious. Some may want to deny it but the numbers don't lie. With 2024 on the way, the competition will have to do something mind blowing to stem the tide but that doesn't seem likely.

Luckily, MS' ethos on the MSFS platform is creating an attractive environment that keeps simmers in the ecosystem regardless of external factors so we'll just have to keep them honest with our feedback.

Edited May 14 by Krakin