Lord Farringdon

While this topic is about the beleaguered E170 it is unfortunate that it taints FSS so badly as a company that it makes it seem it just wants grab money for an alpha version then never really finish it. In fact their B727 is the direct opposite. FSS have pretty well kept to their plan and statements with the regard to B727 which was developed as a new aircraft, released as a -200 then added with a -100 and all the time receiving updates that have resulted in tangible improvements from initial release. And, reasonably priced for all that especially for those who bought in 2020 and upgraded to 2024. If I have one issue it is that perhaps we are so used to regular B727 updates that any significant delays to fix a bug in the lighting or something as trivial, bothers us. As I understand it, the E170 and the B727 are developed by different teams within FSS, but that sometimes B727 resources are reassigned to help the E170 effort which then has a knock on effect on B727 update releases from time to time. Anyway it's clear that E170 purchasers are risibly upset with FSS after all this time and rightly so. I just want to point out to those reading this thread that not all of what FSS does is bad and that in fact their B727 is very credible and well supported product. Given an opportunity to develop their own aircraft natively FSS have shown their worth. But developing a legacy aircraft they purchased from someone else seems to have been a bridge too far and I fear the E170 is not an easy fix for them. But if there is anything positive that can come out of all this negativity, it is that FSS haven't given up on E170 which I think many users have. Their latest updates, good or bad suggest they are still actively pursuing it. Terry

Great vid Mike! Operating from a second PC makes a lot of sense while taking the load off your primary CPU and GPU. Can I ask, do you notice any latency on the Glass Out displays through that arrangement? Do you see any noticeable FPS performance issues resulting from using Glass Out on another server? We probably expect a decrease in FPS but my thinking is that while the primary CPU still has to process the display data, actual display work is now occurring on the other PC's CPU which hosts the Glass Out app, the effect being that the primary CPU doesn't have to run the app and the primary GPU has less display work to do. I would guess this may actually improve FPS even though it may not be substantial. What is your experience Mike? Cheers Terry

Ah well, you are indeed correct. Pete. I think the apparent 'random' nature of where the .exe file ends up is based around deconfliction with FS2020 if it is loaded on the same drive. In my case, 2020 is on a different drive to 2024 and so the exe path is standard. So the location of the FS2024 exe is not the issue. But in the OPS case, they probably have the two sims on the same drive which kicks the exe file for 2024 to the Limitless folder. In any case the OP got the shortcut to work...sort of... There are two issues here. The Steam app, which must be running, and the Steam Overlay which others have indicated can be set to off so as not to pop up. It's a little confusing sometimes which one is actually being talked about. The OP mentioned in an earlier post they they didn't load the Steam App however it must be loaded before FS 2024 will run so that's what is taking the time ie the loading of Steam followed by the loading of FS2024. So Steam should be set to load on startup but the Steam Overlay (the annoying pop up) can be switched off in Steam settings so you don't see it. That should make the Desktop shortcut work correctly. Anybody including the OP who still following this thread gets a virtual chocolate fish for your stamina to endure the arcane that is MSFS!!!! Moving on..... Cheers Terry

Not entirely, but see below. I have a desktop shortcut set up to start from the 2024 exe on my PC and it starts without the Steam overlay. However, during the start it gives a small message in the bottom right which says Shift + Tab to access Steam overlay. So Steam does not start for me in MSFS 2024. But, the OP has given his shortcut link as: D:\Steam\steamapps\common\Limitless\FlightSimulator2024.exe. Now if I am correct, 'Limitless' is an Xbox folder not a PC folder. So if we are discussing a shortcut for XBox that avoids the Steam overlay, then "No" may indeed be the correct answer, but it certainly can be bypassed on a PC. Cheers Terry

Nah, there is no need for Steam to be running. If you make a market place purchase then when it comes time for payment the appropriate Steam window is called and then your purchasing in Steam. 👍

Depends on your system and how you have created MSFS2024 on which hard drive etc but, just modify this path as needed and past it into the shortcut location window as your starting target. I'm not sure about the quote marks. They may self-generated, or maybe not? "C:\Program Files (x86)\Steam\steamapps\common\MSFS2024\FlightSimulator2024.exe" Cheers Terry

Your desktop shortcut is pointing to Steams UID. Have a look at your desktop properties. If you create a new desktop shortcut and point it to your FlightSimulator.exe from your local drive, you wont see Steam pop up.

I used to crew on B727-100's (non pilot though) and I can say that the FSS rendition is very good. It's just like being back in the old bird. The visuals and the sounds are all there. Just the old avionics smell is missing but I guess we can't hold FSS to that!! Importantly from my perspective the old nav systems are available which means replication of old departure and arrival procedures is a lot of fun. Of course if you want the GPS systems, they are modelled too. And, as others have said, the cold and dark start is realistic and immersive again with switch sounds, power crossover sounds and air con pack sounds as expected on the actual aircraft. While FSS had some problems with pitching when they first released the model, that has all been sorted now and the flight model is quite stable and realistic for the aircraft size and weight. So long as you have a stable approach, adhere to ref speeds and keep the engines spooled you should make a good landing or at least be able to go missed approach comfortably. I'm not sure about 2024 but I didn't think the 2020 paint texturing was anything to write home about, but they are good enough. Look at this B727 missed approach into Mogadishu for inspiration......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCWbjsynDZ0 Cheers Terry

FSS B727, with classic nav! Flying Iron Spit for R&R!.

Baseless allegation so far as the OPS's posts are concerned. Most of his posts return zero confidence in AI generation while those that do are within the human written 20% or less AI confidence score (many 0% or with 1 -5%). But perhaps your allegation is related to someone else's posts?

So an MSFS simmer is desperately in need of good AI/ATC app but nothing suitable was to be found. Suddenly he sees an app being produced that seems to hold great promise. But he's seen apps sold before that were either never completed or never met their promises so, he starts to think negatively about this new app. So much so, he can only say negative things to the developer, things like, "your AI generated", "You can stick your subscription" and, "I'm out of here"!. He then goes back to the flight simulator, frustrated at the lack of good AI/ATC. LOL! I never thought I'd see the well known classic human behaviour story (below) emulated so well as I have seen in this thread. "A traveling salesman is driving down a deserted country road late at night when his car sputters to a halt. He looks at his dashboard and groans—he is completely out of gas. He steps out of the car, looks around, and spots a faint light from a farmhouse about a mile away across a dark field. With no other choice, he decides to walk over and ask the farmer if he can buy a gallon of gasoline. As he begins walking through the dark, chilly night, his mind starts to wander. "I hope that farmer is awake," he thinks to himself. After walking a quarter of a mile, a new thought creeps in: "Well, it’s pretty late. If I wake him up, he’s probably going to be a bit grumpy. "By the half-mile mark, his anxiety builds: "Actually, a farmer's gas is precious to him for his tractors. He’ll probably think I’m some careless city slicker who doesn't know how to manage a fuel tank. He might even judge me. "By the time he is three-quarters of the way there, he is completely working himself up: "He’s definitely going to be an old miser. He’s going to see how desperate I am and overcharge me. He’ll probably try to make me pay fifty dollars for a single, lousy gallon of gas! What a greedy jerk. "As he finally reaches the front porch, the salesman is absolutely furious, having fully convinced himself of the farmer's hostility. He storms up the steps and slams his fist against the front door. A few moments later, the porch light turns on. A kind, sleepy-eyed old farmer opens the door, smiles warmly, and says, "Hello there, son. It’s awfully late, can I help you with something? "The salesman, trembling with manufactured rage, glares at him and yells: "You know what? You can keep your rotten gallon of gas! "He turns on his heel, stomps off the porch, and begins the long walk back to his empty car, leaving the completely bewildered farmer standing in the doorway".

So take this with a grain of salt, but as a non-pilot, I have actually flown the B727 in couple of holding pattern events which due to the nature of operations meant we had to remain overhead for 2 hours while awaiting the primary aircraft's departure. We were the back up if anything went wrong. This was a long time ago, with just our crew aboard and no passengers and long before the rules became much stricter. I recall quite clearly, that the aircraft was not light on the controls but that the roll into the turns was easily attained without attendant over or under roll which with my lack of experience, would have resulted in roll snaps. Roll out and straight line flying was rock solid unlike my attempts to remain within 100 feet of altitude!!! So in that regard, I experienced a very stable aircraft that really didnt allow me to mess it up no matter my lack of flying experience. There are plenty of real pilots who have attested to the stability of the B727 especially in relation to approach and landing. I/we would love to hear their view on this for which I believe there are a number reasons. Wing dihedral on a swept wing aircraft like the B727 aircraft tends to lead to a convergent (as opposed to divergent) yaw stability. However the B727 was famously known for its tendency to 'Dutch Roll', especally at higher speeds and altitude. This was associated with its rear engine and T-Tail configuration. To overcome this, yaw dampers were fitted to the upper and lower rudders. (Question: I wonder if the -100 was more susceptible to this than the -200?). But at lower altitudes and especially on approach, the clean wings (ie, no engines), with Kruger flaps, slats and Fowler flaps lead to a stable approach. So as I say, take my experience with a grain of salt but I personally think FSS have a done a fairly good job of replicating the flying feel of the B727 to the extent that yes, when its speeds are correct, there is little turbulence and the aircraft is trimmed correctly, it does sometimes feel like the FSS 727 is flying on rails.

Is your question "Which one should you use? ie Auto throttle or IAS hold mode, it is a bit of conundrum. IAS HOLD if you want to fly the aircraft as it intended when it was first built. Auto throttle if you want to replicate those later retrofits. Beyond Fuel Cut-Off levers I have not setup bindings on my Honeycomb Bravo for IAS so I have to use the pitch wheel which is located on the pedestal and is a particularly annoying manipulation to get right in a critical phase of flight and in turbulence. I only fly with CIV-A INS so I don't know how well IAS HOLD works with other nav systems. So even though the Auto Throttle feature was only fitted to some B727's in their later lives, I find it much easier to use because you need only to move the airspeed speed bug while still being heads up watching everything else. However FSS notes the Auto Throttle feature is only partly implemented, so I guess it doesn't work too well with RNAV procedures?

I think the stubbies are designed partly with the 'Golden Ratio' aesthetic in mind. Every extension after that gradually destroys it!

Despite the opprobrium FSS have bought upon themselves with there E jet releases, it must be a different team working on the B727 series because they have fixed and patched quite regularly while also improving the product. The aircraft is not an automated, FMS, follow the magenta line type of aircraft that most people are familiar with today and consequently requires a bit of patience to understand it's old school approach. Things like manually selecting radios on and selecting NAV not GPS when using auto glide slope. I'm not saying there weren't problems with the initial release and indeed the handling was well off with excessive pitching but many of the issues were user related as a result of not reading the documentation that came with the model. Things like the crew manager not working, the EFB (well a clipboard anyway), not working properly, lighting issues, sound issues and texture gaps were all issues that FSS has plugged, fixed and improved. At the wishes of those mostly familiar with newer aircraft means of navigation, FSS have provided options for a range of GPS aids that can be selected to the point that there is nothing fundamental (except the inoperative radar) that would destroy your desire to fly the aircraft. So a lot of issues you may have seen have either been fixed or are being brought up by people not reading the documentation completely or not setting up their control options correctly especially in relation to fuel cut-off levers and using the CIV-A INS. Not saying it's perfect. Just as the winglets are a more modern option, I would love to see a classic option with clamshell reversers. There is still some issues with starting the APU that requires the test alarm to be activated twice. Perhaps they have fixed this in the latest update or maybe I'm missing something? But the aircraft is a good looker, systems are well modelled (without failure options though) and it fly's really well and importantly, it keeps your interest. Still some niggles but there is nothing major that would make you regret the purchase especially as you say, you love the B727. Go for it.