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Cessnaflyer

Real life flight planning help...

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Hi, I'll get right to the point- My instructor asked me to plan a flight from KHVN to KPOU for Saturday, and after I got home I looked at the navigation log and realized there's more to it than I recall.Would any of you guys/gals who are real life pilots want to give me a hand with this? My brother is not going to have any time this week, and if I don't get it done we won't have time to do the trip.I am in CT, and could certainly call you- 8 or later is best for me. I have a current NY sectional/AFD/plotter/E6B etc... but you would probably have to have a NY sectional also.I understand this may be a long shot, but just threw it out there in case anybody might want to do it. Thanks!

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Hi Chris, sorry I'm just getting back- I posted my other story earlier, but haven't had much time on here this week.I'll gather my stuff together tonight and post on here. I'd like to talk mano-y-mano, but if you can help me on here, then others will benefit as well.

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Thanks guys :)Off the top of my head, I know I need to input a cruise altitude.The airport is exactly 50 miles from New Haven.Here are the factors I understand for deciding cruising alt:1) Weather2) Terrain3) Direction4) DistanceAssuming clear skies, and terrain at/below 1000 ft MSL:My heading will be northwest. So above 3000 feet I will need to pick an even + 500 alt.So I only have to choose from:450065008500Using the rule of thumb for descents, at 8500 feet down to 1000 feet would leave me a 7500 foot descent- So I divide 7500/500 which is 15. I multiply x2, and that means I should start my descent about 30 miles out. That would be over half the trip, so I can rule that out. Even 6500 will mean I have a 22 mile descent/climb, which leaves me with a 6 mile cruise. Barely enough to enjoy the scenery!So I am guessing for this trip 4500 would be my most logical choice?Can you offer some input on this?

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I agree. Reasoning below.1) Weather2) Terrain3) Direction4) DistanceAdd 5) WorkloadAnd 6) EfficiencyBasically, for efficiency you want to get to full throttle altitude, but only within the within the other constraints. But you also must give yourself enough time to brief yourself for the descent and approach which means getting the ATIS and clearances well before the ToD.A an aside, why descend at 500fpm? In an unpressurised aircraft you can go up to 1000fpm descent and reduce the distance to 15nm. Planning a 1000fpm descent is perfectly reasonable.You'll need about 15 still air miles to get to 8500. That makes your 110kts IAS about 125kts TAS at 8500'. And the cruise for the remaining 20nm a quick 10 mins which will make you very busy as you want the approach straight in your head before you descend. 8500 isn't suitable.6500 isn't much of an improvement in the workload stakes. 4500 is. It gives you an additional 6-7 mins to plan the descent and approach and your TAS will still be 9% more than your IAS.I'm curious about the even+500 altitude. This is the quadrantal rule and only makes sense if you fly a flight level, not an altitude. The purpose is to ensure that traffic in different cardinal directions are not flying at the same level. That can only be achieved if everybody is flying a quadrantal with 1013/29.92 set.

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Thanks for the help. I was wondering about the descent actually. The Warrior POH basically says you can descend at any rate you want as long as you don't overspeed.I could be wrong but I BELIEVE the reasoning for 500FPM is that you can use more throttle in a shallower dive. I'm not sure about other seasons, but in the winter you don't want to be at a high airpseed with a low throttle setting because the engine can cool quickly, and non-uniformly, which can lead to problems. That is what I have ascertained from various instructors anyway, but I've never asked directly.As far as the quadratic rule or whatever it's called, it still applies to VFR aircraft from what I've heard. A few instructors have said to use it above 3000 MSL. Yes, it's not as accurate as having everybody at the same altimeter setting, but it's probably better than everybody flying at random altitudes. It is also printed on my VFR kneeboard, so sporty's thinks it's a good idea too :)Thanks for the help! So I have the navlog in front of me now:What do I put in "Aircraft Type/Special Equipment". I assume "PA28-161"? What does special equipment mean?What about "True Airspeed"? Is that the average for the trip, or the cruising speed?What about "Route of Flight"? Is that only for published waypoints/fixes for IFR flights? Or should I put down my pilotage/dead reckoning points like "Water tower 2 miles east of Meriden"?What kind of stuff goes in "Remarks?"Go easy on me for this one, my book knowledge is a bit rusty: What is the difference between True Course and True Heading? There are two boxes: One labeled "TC" and under it "-L", "+R", "WCA". This is true course with +/- wind correction, but what exactly is that asking for? I am confused because I thought the other box labeled "TH" would be the wind corrected heading? I am definately confused by these two.Thanks!

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Here is some of my help after reading Mr. Chips answers I have to take care of one glaring error."I'm curious about the even+500 altitude. This is the quadrantal rule and only makes sense if you fly a flight level, not an altitude. The purpose is to ensure that traffic in different cardinal directions are not flying at the same level. That can only be achieved if everybody is flying a quadrantal with 1013/29.92 set."That is incorrect reference AIM Chapter 3-1-5 and Table 3-1-2 entitled VFR Cruising Altitudes AND Flight Levels basically it states that if you are higher then 3,000' AGL but less then 18,000' MSL you will have to fly cardinal altitudes based on magnetic course (ground track)"I could be wrong but I BELIEVE the reasoning for 500FPM is that you can use more throttle in a shallower dive. I'm not sure about other seasons, but in the winter you don't want to be at a high airpseed with a low throttle setting because the engine can cool quickly, and non-uniformly, which can lead to problems. That is what I have ascertained from various instructors anyway, but I've never asked directly."You are correct and the term used is shock cooling. It is the same effect of taking an emptied cola can and heating it up in boiling water for awhile then quickly moving it into ice water and watching it collapse on itself. Obviously not to the same effects in the aircraft but it will cause extra wear on the piston seals and cylinder walls as the cylinder shrinks and the piston stays the same size."What do I put in "Aircraft Type/Special Equipment". I assume "PA28-161"? What does special equipment mean?" The aircraft you fly will be a PA28 I believe the max number of letter/numbers is 4 for the aircraft type, this is what a center controller told me when I was at Seattle ARTCC one day. Your what they call "slash information" can be found in the AIM table 5-1-2 Aircraft Suffixes. The Special Equipment is your aircrafts navigation abilities and transponder type in use. If they ask you over the radio you would say the suffix in the phonetic alphabet."What about "True Airspeed"? Is that the average for the trip, or the cruising speed?"This is the speed that you get from Section 5 of your Pilots Operating Handbook. So you pick out your altitude based off of temperature and pressure from standard and then the percent power you will be using and that will give you a proper RPM and a true airspeed which you will put into box #4 of the flight plan. "What about "Route of Flight"? Is that only for published waypoints/fixes for IFR flights? Or should I put down my pilotage/dead reckoning points like "Water tower 2 miles east of Meriden"?"What kind of stuff goes in "Remarks?""For this they only want fixes or navaids that are used in the National Airspace System. (The following is an example of what you would enter if you are not stopping doing a touch-and-go at the destination airport or filing a separate return leg plan.)Box #5: (Your home airport identifier)Box #8: (Direct (destination airport identifier) Direct)Box #9: (Your home airport identifier)Box #11: (Round Robin Flight)If you don't have a flight plan that gives you the proper numbers you can use AIM Figure 5-1-1 for the DOT/FAA flight plan."Go easy on me for this one, my book knowledge is a bit rusty: What is the difference between True Course and True Heading? There are two boxes: One labeled "TC" and under it "-L", "+R", "WCA". This is true course with +/- wind correction, but what exactly is that asking for? I am confused because I thought the other box labeled "TH" would be the wind corrected heading? I am definately confused by these two."This looks fairly good but here are wait they are:True Course (TC): This is the heading taken straight from the plotter off of the sectional or WAC.True Heading (TH): This is TC corrected for WindMagnetic Heading (MH): This is TH corrected for magnetic deviation for the areas you are flying in.Compass Heading (CH): This is the final heading you will use to navigate with. This is TH corrected for magnetic compass error for the aircraft you are flying in. Hopefully this helped clear up some of the questions! :)

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Hi Cessna, Christian,Not a glaring error. I am applying UK rules not US, sorry for the confusion. I don't know what the system is in the US, but in the UK aircraft in the same airspace could be flying on different QNH settings. This is because each aerodrome will have its own pressure setting which is valid within 25nm of the aerodrome. Then there is the regional pressure setting which is the lowest aerodrome QNH within the ASR (Altimeter Setting Region). You can't apply a vertical seperation system for aircraft flying with different altimeter settings. How does the US organise its system? With regards to shock-cooling, this is only really an issue if you whack the throttle closed and descend in an engine idle glide and don't periodically warm the engine. There is no physiological nor mechanical reason to limit your RoD to 500fpm. If nothing else, you should limit your RoD to 1000fpm for normal operations (aircraft type dependent), as that is comfortable for the ear, especially when considering passengers. There is no reason to descend faster than normal cruise speed IAS. When you practice PFLs (practice forced landing - glides), just ensure you add some power momentarily every 500', not much just enough to raise the revs and keep the carb de-iced and prevent shock-cooling. There is more of a definate issue with some turbocharged aircraft. For example, before descending in the Seneca I must reduce power to 25" for one minute before pulling back to 18" to descend at 1000fpm.The conservative horses mouth: http://www.lycoming.textron.com/main.jsp?b...denCooling.html

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Wow thank you both, lots of useful information! I should definately be able to do this. I apologize Mr. Chips, I forgot you were on the other side of the pond. My grandparents came over here from England. Apparently they were butlers for some wealthy families, and came to work for one of them here down on the Connecticut shore, which is how I ended up here!I have just one question on your input Cessnaflyer:Box #8: (Direct (destination airport identifier) Direct)So I would put "Direct POU Direct"?Why direct twice?Also, on the flip side of the navlog (Jeppesen), There is the section for "Check Points (Fixes)". How does this work? Is this where I put my arbitrary fixes? Do I need to put in my dep/dest airports as the first and last fixes?

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>Hi Cessna, Christian,>>Not a glaring error. I am applying UK rules not US, sorry for>the confusion. I don't know what the system is in the US, but>in the UK aircraft in the same airspace could be flying on>different QNH settings. This is because each aerodrome will>have its own pressure setting which is valid within 25nm of>the aerodrome. Then there is the regional pressure setting>which is the lowest aerodrome QNH within the ASR (Altimeter>Setting Region). You can't apply a vertical seperation system>for aircraft flying with different altimeter settings. How>does the US organise its system? A I see why you said that now :) We are supposed to change our altimeter every 100 miles or so and during those times center or approach control gives you the local Kollsman setting. So it is fairly accurate and I guess is enough to keep us out of each others airspace. >With regards to shock-cooling, this is only really an issue if>you whack the throttle closed and descend in an engine idle>glide and don't periodically warm the engine. There is no>physiological nor mechanical reason to limit your RoD to>500fpm. If nothing else, you should limit your RoD to 1000fpm>for normal operations (aircraft type dependent), as that is>comfortable for the ear, especially when considering>passengers. There is no reason to descend faster than normal>cruise speed IAS. When you practice PFLs (practice forced>landing - glides), just ensure you add some power momentarily>every 500', not much just enough to raise the revs and keep>the carb de-iced and prevent shock-cooling. There is more of a>definate issue with some turbocharged aircraft. For example,>before descending in the Seneca I must reduce power to 25" for>one minute before pulling back to 18" to descend at 1000fpm.>>The conservative horses mouth:>http://www.lycoming.textron.com/main.jsp?b...denCooling.htmlWe've had so many problems with shock cooling in the Bonanzas here and cold oil temperatures in our sundowners and sports that we usually keep power on above 1800 RPM for the fixed pitch and 17" on the constant speed props. Here is a METAR from right now showing what the cold weather we deal with flying here.KMWH 121552Z 34005KT 10SM CLR M15/M18 A3051 RMK AO2 SLP356 T11501178

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>Wow thank you both, lots of useful information! I should>definately be able to do this. I apologize Mr. Chips, I forgot>you were on the other side of the pond. My grandparents came>over here from England. Apparently they were butlers for some>wealthy families, and came to work for one of them here down>on the Connecticut shore, which is how I ended up here!>>I have just one question on your input Cessnaflyer:>>Box #8: (Direct (destination airport identifier) Direct)>>So I would put "Direct POU Direct"?>>Why direct twice?Correct that is saying that you will go from your departure point box direct POU and then back direct to your departure point making for a round robin flight in the remarks section.>Also, on the flip side of the navlog (Jeppesen), There is the>section for "Check Points (Fixes)". How does this work? Is>this where I put my arbitrary fixes? Do I need to put in my>dep/dest airports as the first and last fixes?This is where you enter the information for the visual checkpoints you will be using on the ground and how to navigate to them. I don't have any available jep stuff here it's just to expensive for my blood to be using that stuff :)>

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I like these conversations. Makes me think about stuff I normally don't come across. We simply don't get -15deg on the ground in this country. -10deg makes headline news, +4deg is usual in Winter in Southern UK.

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In that case I envy you. I got out of the plane the other morning and the wing was frozen (not iced) and it was making little cracking sounds. I hope it wasn't the aluminum :)Or, as they call it in the UK "Alu-min-i-um". Never understood that? I always hear them say that on Top Gear. Wish we had shows like that here BTW.So, my brother and I going to go down to the restaurant where our friend is the manager and spread out the charts while we have a few drinks tonight. He can show me the details, but I bet some of this stuff he didn't know.Thanks again!

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Christian, do you have the freeware AOPA flight planner? Very helpful with all this and creates a flightplan based on your parameters. Also can import NextRad weather overlays etc.Eric

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