16 minutes ago, anavsun said:

For instance, on the FMA I was expecting to see VOR/LOC and not LNAV.

This is because you're in IAN (integrated approach navigation) mode, not ILS approach mode. Note also that the vertical mode in the FMA is "G/P" (for glidepath, indicating you're in IAN mode), not "G/S" (for glideslope, which you would expect to see on an ILS approach). You can't perform an autoland in IAN mode -- you have to be in ILS mode.

I think someone already pointed this out to you in an earlier thread: To ensure you get ILS approach mode rather than IAN mode, you should make sure that magenta "diamonds" are being displayed on the localizer and glideslope indications on the PFD before arming approach mode.

Everything else is secondary, I think. In the screenshot you posted, I don't think you're too fast -- you should be able to very comfortably slow to approach speed in time.

To engage AUTOLAND, you must:
1. Crosswind not exceeding 25 Kts.
2. MCP ALT armed on FAP altitude (final approach point).
3. Set the Course to the runway heading before arming [APP]

•   Pilot,
•   Copilot.

4. NAV1 and NAV2 on the ILS frequency.
5. Arm [APP] before the IF.
6. Engage the 2 [CMD].
7. The PFD displays: VOR/LOC and G/S active.
8. Both F/D must light up.
9. The PFD displays LAND 3 or CMD for a CAT IIIA

NB: the crew must be qualified, the tower informed and autoland authorized.

Edited February 10, 20251 yr by Area

4 hours ago, aniiran said:

but as I found out KSJC has no CATIII ILS and therefore no Autoland.

This is definitely untrue.  You're getting far too down in the weeds with this.

From a technical standpoint, all the real airplane requires to auto land is an ILS.  That's it.  There are regulatory requirements governing which ILSs a crew will use an autoland with, but the airplane knows none of this.  The FMC is irrelevant; you can (even legally) autoland with a dual FMC failure.  Auto brakes, speed brake..  none of this affects the airplane's ability to fly a dual channel approach (an autoland).  In an emergency, you can absolutely engage both autopilots on any ILS in the world and it will put you on the runway. 

If you're receiving a valid ILS signal, have both nav radios correctly tuned and both inbound courses correctly set, and engage the second autopilot above roughly 1400ft AGL, the autoland will work.  Period.

It's been a while, but I seem to remember flying the 30L ILS into SJC in the sim and finding that it was messed up.  You'll see this in the sim sometimes; the localizer and/or glideslope beams aren't "attached" to the correct place, meaning you end up in the wrong spot (off centerline, too high etc) at minimums.  But if this were to happen in reality, the plane would still try to autoland; it would just kill you.  I assume the PMDG would do the same, as it has no way to know how to do anything except just follow the beams.

Your last screenshot shows you in completely the wrong lateral and vertical mode.  I told you in your last thread - look at your flight mode annunciator (FMA) across the top of your artificial horizon.  You're in LNAV and GP there... You need to be in LOC and GS or an autoland WILL NOT WORK. 

People have asked PMDG for years to make IAN an option but they've ignored it.  IAN IS an option on the iFly Max (meaning you can choose to disable it) and man that simplifies things in the sim with its unrealistically short range for the ILS signals.

Edited February 10, 20251 yr by Stearmandriver

4 hours ago, aniiran said:

 

Dupe post.

Edited February 10, 20251 yr by Stearmandriver

Guys, thank you all very much. I'll re-read and review all of the above comments and feedback. I've tried flying the route so many times today that I think I was getting careless and forgetting to do some things.  I guess I have to take a break.  🙂

For what it's worth below is a video of my last attempt. Now that someone mentioned it, I'm not sure if I set the NAV frequencies in NAV1 and 2. For sure I forgot checking for the "diamonds" in the PFD.

Towards the end of the video, I just pressed buttons without much thought hoping I'll get lucky and auto-land in the correct manner. Not surprisingly it didn't happen.

 

53 minutes ago, anavsun said:

Towards the end of the video, I just pressed buttons without much thought hoping I'll get lucky and auto-land in the correct manner. Not surprisingly it didn't happen.

The first thing to fix in this video is that you're turning onto final much too close in -- inside the final approach point (FAP), in fact. Once you fix that, everything else will likely fall into place.

You've got the FMC set up to fly to KLIDE, but because you're coming in on a course that is almost opposite to the final approach course, the FMC turns well before KLIDE so that it doesn't overshoot the outbound course from KLIDE -- but this causes you to be high and fast on the approach.

Try this instead:

• Initially, enter heading mode to put you on a downwind leg (approximately heading 120)
• Once you've flown past KLIDE, then set yourself up to fly direct to KLIDE in LNAV (or just continue to give yourself vectors in heading mode until you intercept the ILS).

In real life, you (or rather ATC) would also need to make sure you remain at a safe altitude on the downwind -- see the charted terrain/obstacles and the MSA of 5600 feet.

An alternative would be to start the approach at BORED -- this would then also allow you to fly the initial approach in LNAV, if that's your preference.

Edited February 10, 20251 yr by martinboehme

Note that you pressed Approach when more than 90 degrees off of centerline.  This armed the Back Course lateral mode because of your misalignment, and Glidepath mode because you weren't yet receiving a valid glideslope (because you were so far off centerline). 

It'll really help you to get in the habit of watching the flight mode annunciator to understand what the airplane is doing.  We try to drill this into the head of new airline pilots - you live and die by the FMA.  Don't go making any assumptions about what mode you're in based on what button you pressed - those buttons are REQUESTS, they do not tell you what's actually happening.  The only place in the cockpit you can look to see what the autoflight is actually DOING, vs what you've asked it to do, is the FMA.

Also note that an autoland would not typically be flown off of an RNAV approach like you're doing here, with that tight arc to final.  You theoretically have enough time to get it armed from a technical standpoint, but it'll be close.  In reality, you'd be getting vectored out wider, onto a longer straight in final.  Especially while trying to learn, there's no reason to cut yourself this tight. Just use heading select to "self-vector" yourself out further, and take a 30 degree intercept to final.  When you see the diamond indications, press approach. 

The reason to be careful about being too tight is that you have to have the localizer and glideslope captured, and the second autopilot armed, before roughly 1400ft.  You'll see the loc and GS diamonds flash right around there; this is a self-test that occurs after a relay opens, isolating the two nav systems and creating redundancy.  If you've got the second autopilot armed before this happens and the test is successful, you'll see your FMA display autoland indications afterwards.  You cannot engage the second autopilot after this occurs.

On your video, you are on an RNAV IAN approach and not ILS. Look at the FMA which tells you LNAV and G/P, it should display VOR/LOC and G/S. Look at my post above.

An "autoland" approach starts at least at the IF point, on the video you skip the IF point and the FAF point which is often the FAP point (capture of the G/S and start of the final descent).

Edited February 10, 20251 yr by Area

3 hours ago, anavsun said:

I tried landing several times on 30L using the route from KSFO to KSJC ILS 30L. The aircraft is too high and too fast when it arrives at the threshold of 30L.

The best I could do is shown below. I have no idea what I did. So of course I can'r repeat it. I thought I just got lucky.

The question marks in the picture below are there because I don't know if they should be as shown. They are probably errors and it doesn't make sense to me and I just don't have enough experience flying the 737.  For instance, on the FMA I was expecting to see VOR/LOC and not LNAV. The Course headings should be 306 and not 255. I thought the VORLOC and APP buttons should be green. CMD-B should be green also. I thought that these are probably because of what @aniiran mentioned ie. 30L is not a cat III ILS.  My bet is that these are all user errors (mine).

• COURSE should be 305 degrees (runway heading)
• HEADING should be (best practice) 305 degrees
• LNAV should be VOR/LOC on the FMA (assuming that you have captured the localiser signal)
• G/P on the FMA indicates that you are on an RNAV approach (it should be G/S if you are on an ILS approach)
• The green light on APP disappears when the glideslope is captured, so you are OK there

As the above post indicates, you are not on an ILS approach in that screenshot. Did you selected the correct ILS frequency (and activate it) on the centre pedestal? Did you select "ILS 30L" for the approach on the FMS keypad?

Edited February 10, 20251 yr by Christopher Low

I get the feeling you're not looking at a chart first before selecting the approach in the plane? It's so much clearer to have one in front of you either printed out or on a tablet before you land so you can see where you are supposed to be and at what altitude. 

Here are the charts for KJSC from the FAA :

https://adip.faa.gov/agis/public/#/airportCharts/SJC

Interestingly I've found 3 different versions of the glidescope intercept point online and from navigraph charts. The navigraph chart shows gs intercept at HAVEK and the others at KLIDE. There are multiple charts also depending on your ac and training with different minimums (the altitude where you MUST see the runway or go missed). It's 97ft in the CAT II chart. 

Whichever ILS chart you use for 30L you MUST be aligned for the runway by KLIDE and be descending as the chart shows. Make sure the approach you set in the FMC is the SAME one of the chart. You should see 2 or 3 ILS RWY 30 in the 737 FMC! 

 

 

Edited February 10, 20251 yr by sloppysmusic
Auto wna

8 hours ago, Area said:

An "autoland" approach starts at least at the IF point, on the video you skip the IF point and the FAF point which is often the FAP point (capture of the G/S and start of the final descent).

Perhaps you're thinking of a company profile, but from a technical standpoint this is unnecessary.  The airplane has no idea where the IF is.  All that's necessary is that both radios be tuned / both courses set, the plane be in approach mode (loc and GS at least armed), and the second autopilot be selected before roughly 1400ft.  

There are various profile gates and call outs that any company will train to trap misconfig errors and ensure the crew is certain of what the airplane is doing, but they aren't too relevant here (and will vary by operator anyway).  

8 hours ago, sloppysmusic said:

Make sure the approach you set in the FMC is the SAME one of the chart. You should see 2 or 3 ILS RWY 30 in the 737 FMC! 

Hi @sloppysmusic, I need clarification to the above. You noted that "....you set in the FMC is the SAME one of the chart".  I am not clear on this. It's the FMC that selected the course for me after I selected the "Flt Plan REQUEST" in the RTE page in the FMC (the page where it asks my origin and destination airport). Can you clarify please?

I'm also unclear on "You should see 2 or 3 ILS RWY 30".  Thank you for pointing this out. What is the difference between these 3 approaches: ILS 30L, RNVY 30L, and RNVZ 30L? There's also runway 30L?  So, there are four 30L entries at KSJC when I press the DEP/ARR button.  I'm assuming that I can only auto-land on ILS RWY 30 and have always selected ILS RWY30? Is this correct? 

1 hour ago, anavsun said:

I'm assuming that I can only auto-land on ILS RWY 30 and have always selected ILS RWY30? Is this correct? 

Yes! The flt plan request will NOT (normally IRL) add the approach in. Normally it won't even load the sid/star in either as you don't know the wind yet but times and sims change!

1 hour ago, anavsun said:

I'm also unclear on "You should see 2 or 3 ILS RWY 30".  Thank you for pointing this out. What is the difference between these 3 approaches: ILS 30L, RNVY 30L, and RNVZ 30L

These are all the available 30L approaches!

FAIRGROUNDS VISUAL RWY 30L/R

ILS OR LOC RWY 30L

RNAV (RNP) Z RWY 30L

ILS RWY 30L (SA CAT I - II)

RNAV (GPS) Y RWY 30L

The ones you can use for autoland are in BOLD

You should use the CAT II one in FMC for lower minimums as the 737 is certified down to 50 ft RA (radio altitude)I believe.

Set 97ft from chart on your BARO mins knob and the FO will announce APPROACHING MINIMUMS and MINIMUMS for you.

In the FMC the 1st one above is probably named ILS LOC 30L and the one you want just ILS30L it depends on the AIRAC you have.

Either will work but in this case the 2nd is for airliners mostly.

Edited February 10, 20251 yr by sloppysmusic
tippo

22 minutes ago, sloppysmusic said:

Set 97ft from chart on your BARO mins knob and the FO will announce APPROACHING MINIMUMS and MINIMUMS for you.

Small correction: The 97 feet should be set as radio minimums -- CAT II approaches use a decision height, not a decision altitude.

A baro minimum of 97 feet would be too low -- just 40 feet above the touchdown zone elevation of 57 feet, and that's assuming there is no altimeter error.

3 hours ago, anavsun said:

Hi @sloppysmusic, I need clarification to the above. You noted that "....you set in the FMC is the SAME one of the chart".  I am not clear on this. It's the FMC that selected the course for me after I selected the "Flt Plan REQUEST" in the RTE page in the FMC (the page where it asks my origin and destination airport). Can you clarify please?

I'm also unclear on "You should see 2 or 3 ILS RWY 30".  Thank you for pointing this out. What is the difference between these 3 approaches: ILS 30L, RNVY 30L, and RNVZ 30L? There's also runway 30L?  So, there are four 30L entries at KSJC when I press the DEP/ARR button.  I'm assuming that I can only auto-land on ILS RWY 30 and have always selected ILS RWY30? Is this correct? 

Completely irrelevant to autoland.  You don't even need the FMC initialized, much less an approach loaded, much less a PARTICULAR approach loaded 😉.  It's useful for reference and would be done in reality for that reason (assuming an FMC was available, but zero are required), but just so you don't get confused here - the FMC has absolutely zero effect on the airplane's ability to fly an ILS or to autoland.  The airplane isn't using any information from the FMC at all.

Edited February 11, 20251 yr by Stearmandriver