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BobP

Feelthere Ejet 170 in flight emergencies! (mini review too)

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I wanted to provide a quick review of this wonderful airplane and decided to put the plane in a couple of off normal situations. Well, actually, both were unintentional. One is the result of a bug and the other me fiddling with the left engine AC power switch.:)I purchased this aircraft the middle of last week (V1.1) and all I have done is fly it. There is a good deal to learn to fly it properly. I have logged 42 flights ranging from short hops of 150nm to regional distances of 600nm. To date, I have completed every flight. I have "grown up" with Boeing's and the glass cockpit of this aircraft has similarities. However, that will get a Boeing simmer into trouble. :) I really like this airplane and here is why. 1. It fills a need to allow me to fly passengers and keep away from major metropolitan airports in FSX which are FPS killers. The performance from the VC is excellent delivering quality graphics, frame rates and refresh rates. There is an FPS hit in all the normal places (big cities, high gen area etc) but minimal for me away from those areas. I fly 100% from the VC and the only thing I can't set is the parking brake, or I just don't know how yet. Everything else from "Cold and Dark" through arrival and shutdown can be performed from the VC.2. I enjoy learning new systems. It is complex and a new avionics package. (at least for me). I have been reading the 800+ page AOM available via a download link in the support forum. The glass cockpit and FMS have been modelled exceptionally close to the real avionics package. For the most part works as stated in the AOM3. I have been critical of Feelthere and Wilco Publishing in the past for the bizarre customer support arrangement. Wilco's customer support is slow and generally unresponsive. Feelthere provided "unofficial" wink wink support forums. That appears to be old news concerning Feelthere. They have a dedicated PIC Embraer forum with participation by the developers. It is a good place to get questions answered, discuss bugs and follow the patch process. Many of the bugs reported are pilots reporting problems who are not familiar with this design. (raises hand:))4. I am impressed with the quality and fidelity of the avionics package and the FMS. The system will calculate a very accurate climb, cruise and descent flight path based upon prevailing winds and fuel burn. OK. I had setup a short flight and performed a routine preflight, start up and takeoff. The information provided by the MFD (display on right) is comparable to the Boeing's with the exception of progress box and visual vertical flight path. These are the "sweet spots" for me concerning flight information. They provide an overview of the transition phases of flight and accurate ques as to upcoming events. The MFD shows that I have about 70 NM until the TOD. http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/191178.jpgSo... I decided to go to the back of the cabin and chat with the passengers (and grab a beverage).http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/191179.jpgI have a PFC throttle quadrant and as I got up to go to the "galley", I moved the spoilers lever down. Oops and I moved it back to the down position. When I got to the back of the plane I noticed the nose was porpoising up and down. I spotted the spoilers cycling from a passenger window as I headed back to the cockpit. Upon taking over the PIC duties again I verified I had the spoiler lever in the "down" position and checked the VC spoiler. It was showing "down". However, the spoilers are still cycling. I opened the systems page and indeed the indication agreed with the spoiler action. (Sorry, I missed the "up" position in the pic)http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/191180.jpgOne final thing to check was the 2D spoiler position. The 2D panel showed the spoiler lever all the way up and responsible for the cycling. That is a bug where the 2D and VC spoiler levers are not synched.After I worked through that problem I was tinkering with the electrical systems page and turning off the engine generators and noting the changes in the electrical systems display. I went to far to the left and "disconnected" the left engine generator. Oops.Now I have no VNAV, no TCAS and an array of systems on a single power source. I decided to land quickly and picked KAXQ as the nearest viable landing strip. I reviewed the terminal chart and setup the approach for Rwy 06 in the FMC. The weather is clear so this will be a visual approach. I chose to use Vertical Speed for the descent. The AT was set to an approach speed of 185K. Notice on the MFD (on the right) that I simply adjusted the slope of the descent path using VS to match the FMS calculated vertical flight path. http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/191183.jpgIt allowed a very easy and accurate line up for 06. http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/191182.jpgI landed with 6 inches to spare at the end of the 4100 foot runway! There are a few bugs (VNAV issue, FD cue in bank etc) but NONE of them preclude having a blast with this regional plane! The developer's are participating in the forum and I'm confident the important ones will be fix rather quickly. Have fun!! BobPS To the gentleman who may have referred to me as a a really excited user in another thread. Go fly a kite.

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Nice review Bob. Great screenshots.I've just recently been flying the feelThere/Wilco 737-PIC and using a flight management computer for the first time. I have to say it brings a whole new dimension to understanding advanced jet flying.I'm not really into tube flying, but when pressed will. Having upcoming events displayed for you on the MFD really helps you keep ahead of the aircraft. I'm a total noob at it, but I have to say it makes flying heavier/faster aircraft a breeze.Thanks for the mini-review.Cheers,

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Bob,how can you not be a a really excited user of such an aircraft ;-). Let the others wait for their ultra perfect and ultra realistic aircraft that will be released some day (or not) ;-).I absolutely love the 170. I wish they would get the 190 on the same level and provide the approach speeds or fix the flight dynamics.Alex

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Very nice and enjoyable package, but the behaviour in autoflight is still horrible. Try shooting a tight SID like CLN5T from EGLC28 and engage autoflight (manage it manually) at 400ft and see how the plane flies, I lose my interest very fast yet. I just hope the developer will fix these issues after he returns from vacation. :)Forgot to mention that the pilot guide is almost non-existent. The best part of it is a tutorial on how to take it up in the sky easily without ever touching FMS, lol. Just one page or less. The rest is rather senseless compilation of snippets from AOM-Airplane_Operations_Manual_E_170.pdf, no help to no help at all. Otherwise, those who flew their previous releases will find it quite familiar and very much upgraded over the past planes. Autoflight is rich with features and probably needs a separate documentation add-on, perhaps another commercial tutorial. Sounds like fun, but as I mentioned the behavior is horrible in autoflight modes, badly needs to be fixed, at least for me, since I don't care much about flying the yoke.PS: This is only to encourage the devs to complete this wonderful package. For the rest on these boards pls don't get me wrong, it's a STRONG BUY signal.

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PS: This is only to encourage the devs to complete this wonderful package. For the rest on these boards pls don't get me wrong, it's a STRONG BUY signal.

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>Nice review Bob. Great screenshots.>>I've just recently been flying the feelThere/Wilco 737-PIC and>using a flight management computer for the first time. I have>to say it brings a whole new dimension to understanding>advanced jet flying.>>I'm not really into tube flying, but when pressed will. Having>upcoming events displayed for you on the MFD really helps you>keep ahead of the aircraft. I'm a total noob at it, but I have>to say it makes flying heavier/faster aircraft a breeze.>>Thanks for the mini-review.>>Cheers,Kevin, I'd say FT/W B737 is a wrong package to catch up on FMS. There are much better FMS learning products since FS2002 like DreamFleet PMDG's, even recent DA's F70./100. Very much encouraging and rewarding when you see you start digging FMS flying one of these birds. Then comes FT/W and you see the FMS is just ok there.

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Hey Dirk!,I have a very stable and consistent take off and climb regime using all the vertical modes including VNAV. The issues with VNAV PATH can be reduced by doing a couple of things. (which you may have done already). 1. You need to review the flight plan altitude/speed at crossing way points and CLIMB,CRUISE and DESCENT profiles in the FMC. Many times the FMC (or flight planner) will insert a way point with a substantial speed difference than the previous. I clean those up manually. 2. Also, The FMC will set (in auto) a descent rate of 290knots. If your cruise speed is less, you will see a nose dive to match the commanded speed. Lower the descent rate to match the cruise speed and she will settle into a constant descent rate. Also, there are a couple of temporary "user edits" to the config and init files that provide a dampening of the oscillations during VNAV PATH descent.The sharp turn issue (loses altitude) is something they should fix with a few more patches. I have completed many flights using VNAV from climb to LOC capture. I do avoid high angle turns (pick another transition) for now. Why don't you post a specific flight and issue in the support forum. I'm sure several of the owners can help with some of the problems. :)Bob..

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>Hey Dirk!,>>I have a very stable and consistent take off and climb regime>using all the vertical modes including VNAV. The issues with>VNAV PATH can be reduced by doing a couple of things. (which>you may have done already). >>1. You need to review the flight plan altitude/speed at>crossing way points and CLIMB,CRUISE and DESCENT profiles in>the FMC. Many times the FMC (or flight planner) will insert a>way point with a substantial speed difference than the>previous. I clean those up manually. >>2. Also, The FMC will set (in auto) a descent rate of>290knots. If your cruise speed is less, you will see a nose>dive to match the commanded speed. Lower the descent rate to>match the cruise speed and she will settle into a constant>descent rate. Also, there are a couple of temporary "user>edits" to the config and init files that provide a dampening>of the oscillations during VNAV PATH descent.>>The sharp turn issue (loses altitude) is something they should>fix with a few more patches. I have completed many flights>using VNAV from climb to LOC capture. I do avoid high angle>turns (pick another transition) for now. >>Why don't you post a specific flight and issue in the support>forum. I'm sure several of the owners can help with some of>the problems. :)>>>Bob..Thanks, Bob. I referred to a simple CLN5T SID EGLC28, fly it and see yourself, if you want to. EJets is not the first package I bought from FT (actually I got all their planes), so I think I know their development cycle to completion, lol. Needs time. Now it is quite good for manual flying, but as I said, try more with autoflight and see how the plane behaves. I hope they will continue fixing it.

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>>Hey Dirk!,>>>and see yourself, if you want to. EJets is not the first>package I bought from FT (actually I got all their planes), so>I think I know their development cycle to completion, lol.>Needs time. Now it is quite good for manual flying, but as I>said, try more with autoflight and see how the plane behaves.>I hope they will continue fixing it.Bob thanks for sharing this review :-)Dirk have for this beauty a adjusted ini + one aircraft adjustment so it will be whole lot better as temporary work around.If interested drop me a PM.Cheers,http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y156/awf1/sign.jpg

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>If interested drop me a PM.>>Cheers,>Yes, I'm interested, PM is inbound.Thanks.PS: Do you have similar adjustments for any of their other past aircafts? I'd willingly try to use them instead, lol.

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I'll give your flight a shot. :) What is the route?

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>I'll give your flight a shot. :) What is the route?To EHAM, but you don't need the route, or take any. Just try flying properly the SID I mentioned above with autopilot engaged and watch the alt and speed fluctuations. Anyway, now I got something 'non-official' here for E-170, that may improve my impressions, hehe. Thanks!

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I flew the route and have a couple of observations. You are aware the 4900 foot runway for EGLC is below the minimum length for take off for that aircraft? I think your desire to "set it and forget it" for short runways and exceptionally tight departures is a bit unrealistic. :) In any case, what was you gross weight on take off?I flew the SID and LNAV followed the plan without a hitch. I did get into issues with VNAV and the step altitude changes over very short distances. VNAV cannot adjust to the changes fast enough at 200 knots it overshot, then VNAV disconnected. A slower departure speed might help. I re-flew the departure using VS and manual MCP altitude changes to match the crossing restrictions. It was fun and no problem. I have a DVD from the flight deck of a real B747-400 flight from Heathrow to New York. The captain used vertical speed and MCP altitude to control the step changes in altitude. The tight departure and arrival airspace around London is very non forgiving. Sometimes you are just going to have to fly the plane. LOL. :)Bob..

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>I flew the route and have a couple of observations. You are>aware the 4900 foot runway for EGLC is below the minimum>length for take off for that aircraft?Are you aware that E170 was certified for operations to/from EGLC and 190 request is pending? Perhaps we just have different definitions of 'hitch'. I'm sure they will be fixing the autoflight in different aspects. The both jets seriously drop and/or overshoot in the turns, let alone VNAV which is not flyable in my definition.

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We are in agreement that VNAV needs some work. I am also using the "user edit/config" changes. I saw almost zero altitude loss in the first two turns. I'll post in the Feelthere E170 forum if you want to compare setup and procedures. I was referencing the Finnair E170 data page which list the runway requirements at 1500 meters. :) I'm sure there are short field procedures, I just don't have them. I used ALL the runway at that airport. LOL. Have fun Dirk!

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