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FalconAF

Which SID/STAR to use?

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In general, how do you know which SID you will use for departure? I know various runways have their own specific SIDs but as a pilot do you choose the SID or is that already predetermined for you by someone else? Same question regarding STARs. Thank you.

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I'm not sure but I think you choose the SID that gets you to or as close to as possible the waypoint where your route continues. Vice versa for STAR. I'm not sure if it's already predetermined.

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You list the SID/ STAR in your flight plan.The choice is pretty clear and obvious most of the time, though you have to look at the charts.Your goal is to understand the airspace, approaches and departures and navaids around your arrival airport like you understand the streets and landmarks for driving around your home. Frankly I don't see how people can fly in FS without understanding the local area map / chart.For example leaving KDFW for the northeast, you certainly are not going to use KingdomSEVEN which heads west.On arrival from that region, you would file BonhamFIVE since it starts at Little Rock - 300 nm from DFW or Fort Smith.Though it is not unusual to be assigned to a different STAR when you reach the terminal approach area if traffic patterns warrant.If you are flying in the US, you are able to look at the various SID/STAR plates and charts online for free and see which you should use.You can also use flight tracking services like FlightAware and see what is being flown by real world aircraft.For example American flight # 1009 today from KSDF-KDFW - MYS V49 OSINE LIT BYP5 - flying the BonhamFIVE STAR from LIT - Little Rock - the plate is here - http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0810/06039BONHAM.PDF -- http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0810/06039BOWIE_C.PDF -- http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0810/06039JONEZ.PDFOr AA2222 - SOLDO2 MEI HONIE5 - SoldoTWO departure from DFW to Mississippi to the Meridian MS VOR near the AL border where the SID ends and the KATL HonieFIVE STAR begins.http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0810/06039SOLDO.PDFhttp://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0810/06039SOLDO_C.PDFhttp://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0810/00026HONIE.PDFhttp://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0810/00026HONIE_C.PDF

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It also depends on your type of flying.In my Ga world I rarely get Sids or Stars-and then rarely end up flying them (radar vectors are given before even getting to most of the waypoints).My recent home airport of 5 years until recently had the ptk8 departure which you knew to file in your flight plan from experience. A moot point as the departure said fly runway heading and expect radar vectors (I don't include this one in my count but you either filed it or got it-till they recently removed it for obvious reasons).Other than that, the rare times I have been given one it is in the clearance you get on the ground for Sids(2x I can remember) and from approach way out-"expect the python 2 arrival". I've only flown 1 Sid by the book (out of Long Beach, Ca.) and never flown any of the others as radar vectors or change of clearance always interupted.You look in your approach plates when they give you one and most modern gps's have them in your database which is about a 3 button event.You can also file in your flight plan in the remarks section "no sids,stars" but I have never done that.GeofaMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

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>I've only flown 1 Sid by the book (out of Long>Beach, Ca.)Odd you mention LGB, by coincidence I flew one of the SIDs out of Long Beach CA last night, and I noticed it routed around the city of LA, not over it at all. I think that must be intentional, to avoid LAX traffic.RhettFS box: E8500 (@ 3.80 ghz), AC Freezer 7 Pro, ASUS P5E3 Premium, BFG 8800GTX 756 (nVidia 169 WHQL), 4gb DDR3 1600 Patriot Cas7 7-7-7-20 (2T), PC Power 750, WD 150gb 10000rpm Raptor, Seagate 500gb, Silverstone TJ09 case, Vista Ultimate 64ASX Client: AMD 3700+ (@ 2.6 ghz), 7800GT

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If you want to know what's being used in real life, just get on www.flightaware.com and look at the airport in question, it'll show you the filed IFR routes all the planes are using.

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ATC assign a SID to you, and you will usually get it when you request your clearance. In the same manner, ATC will assign you a STAR when you're getting close to your TOD, or Top of Descent.It's just not a random SID or STAR, though. More often than not, you can guess what SID and STAR you will recieve, since each SID and STAR belongs to a runway and entry/exit point.Take Stockholm/Arlanda, for example. Some of the exit points are KOGAV, RESNA, AROS, DUNKER, NORTEL and BABAP. The corresponding SIDs for runway 01L are KOGAV 3C, RESNA 3C, AROS 4C, DUNKER 4C, NORTEL 3C and BABAP 3C. As you can see, the SIDs are named after the exit point. The number is the version of the SID, and the last character corresponds to the runway (i.e. KOGAV 3C is the third SID version, and all SIDs from runway 01L ends with C).The STARs work in the same way. Of course, you then have some situations where there are more than one SID or STAR for the same runway / entry/exit point. This may be due to noise abatement procedures, night traffic procedures, different SIDs/STARs for different weight categories, etc...(Someone said that you choose the SID and STAR by writing it in the flight plan. This is not true. As with the rest of the flight plan, this is the way you *want* to fly. It's not certain this is the way ATC will allow you to fly. They might give you "direct to"'s, your requested flight level might be full, etc. As long as it's possible, ATC will allow you to fly what you filed, though.)

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>(Someone said that you choose the SID and STAR by writing it>in the flight plan. This is not true. As with the rest of the>flight plan, this is the way you *want* to fly. It's not>certain this is the way ATC will allow you to fly. They might>give you "direct to"'s, your requested flight level might be>full, etc. As long as it's possible, ATC will allow you to fly>what you filed, though.)Actually it is true that a pilot, or dispatcher filing a FP requests specific SID/STAR usage - especially in the US.A flight plan isn't complete without the SID/STAR. Of course if you SID/STAR is not the one currently in use, the FP will have to be changed.And as you can see in the example in the links above, there are several STAR which cannot be requested in the FP - only be assigned by ATC while enroute.Also, there is always the possibility that weather enroute may require a different STAR be used.Traffic levels also dictate usage of the STAR waypoints. The times I've flown in the jumpseat, I've never seen a complete BYP5 or JONEZ4 STAR flown in to the KDFW area. ATC has always directed intersections be skipped or extended the flight wide of the STAR for separation.In DFW, we have no STAR or SID for a specific runway. Most SID and STAR are used by both of the commercial passenger airports and the cargo airport, along with one military and eight GA jet airports.The KLAX area gets a bit more specific about SID/STAR for certain individual airports, and on one case specific landing direction.Also as I noted on the FP from KDFW to KATL - the American Airlines aircraft never flies any of the route not on a SID or STAR.That is the principle difference between the US and Europe - quite a few SID/STAR in the US are 300 or 400 nm in length.Most European SID/STAR are limited to the host nation borders. In general European STAR more closely resemble the old Initial Approach Procedures in the US.

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Thank you everyone for the extremely informative responses. I have another question regarding SIDs and STARs. I looked up a flight plan on Flightaware for a 747 departing PANC and arriving at KLAX. Here is the route:MDO B453 KANUA B453 BOXER FOT OAK J1 AVE SADDE6Now am I reading this correctly....is SADDE6 a STAR? If it is a STAR then why can't I find in the KLAX terminal procedures? Thank you.

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>MDO B453 KANUA B453 BOXER FOT OAK J1 AVE SADDE6>>Now am I reading this correctly....is SADDE6 a STAR? If it is>a STAR then why can't I find in the KLAX terminal procedures?>Thank you.Just answered my own question. I was searching for SADDE6 but did not realize that they call it SADDE SIX.I guess my next question is MDO a SID?

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I don't know about your specific question-but I have looked at flightaware on my flights...and sometimes they show the clearance I get on the ground though not flown at all in the air, and sometimes they show the clearance I get in the air and actually flown, and sometimes they show some gobbly gook that didn't happen.So even though I love flightaware, I don't know if I'd trust everything you see there.GeofaMy blog:http://geofageofa.spaces.live.com/

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>I guess my next question is MDO a SID?No MDO is the Middelton Island VOR - over the first range of mountains from PANC and out from the coast.Anchorage SID are:ANCHORAGE FOUR - page 1 of this SID does show the approximate location of MDOKNIK SIXTURNAGAIN THREEThey are all very short - mainly showing immediate clearance of the airport area and turning to the south of PANC.I assume the SID are primarily to clear the extensive local traffic at PAMR 5 nm NE of PANC and the military traffic at PAED 7nm ME - along with the many other smaller airports.MDO B453 KANUA B453 BOXER FOT OAK J1 AVE SADDE6I don't see KANUA on the AH1 chart but B453 makes a turn from 113 degrees to 120 degrees at KATCH which is on the border of the Anchorage/ Vancouver ATC Control zonesBOXER is off the coast west of KOTHFOT is where the plane crosses the coast at Fortuna, CAOAK is the Oakland VOR - where the aircraft picks up the J1 high altitude airwayAVE is the Avenal - which is the start of the SADDE SIX Star.If you use the link from www.airnav.com about the departure airport - and go to the charts at www.skyvector.com - you can follow the entire route in the high altitude charts, low altitude charts or the sectional charts.

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>>I guess my next question is MDO a SID?>>No MDO is the Middelton Island VOR - over the first range of>mountains from PANC and out from the coast.>>Anchorage SID are:>>ANCHORAGE FOUR - page 1 of this SID does show the approximate>location of MDO>KNIK SIX>TURNAGAIN THREE>>They are all very short - mainly showing immediate clearance>of the airport area and turning to the south of PANC.>>I assume the SID are primarily to clear the extensive local>traffic at PAMR 5 nm NE of PANC and the military traffic at>PAED 7nm ME - along with the manyh other smaller airports.>>>Ahh thank you for the clarification. Why does this flight plan show a STAR but not a SID?

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>Why does this flight plan show a STAR but not a SID?Like Geoffa said, sometimes the flightplans shown on FlightAware may not be the same as what was originally filed. It's due to limitations on their interfaces and with updates to originally filed flightplans vs what may have been amended after the flightplan was filed. It's also possible that "local procedures" or "agreements" with certain operators may be in effect. For instance, FedEx has numerous repeat daily flights out of someplace like Anchorage that would use the same routing over and over again. It's quite possible that the route you listed will always get "vectors after departure" to get it on course to the first fix...in this case, the MDO VOR. If FedEx and Anchorage ATC know this is the "normal" procedure, then filing the first fix MDO instead of a complete SID won't be questioned. The pilot will be expecting vectors to MDO after takeoff, and ATC will be prepared to give them to the pilot. It's just the way they "unofficially agreed" to do business with each other from prior experience.There's another thing to be aware of about SIDs and STARs that may not be clear to you from this post so far. An airport may have many SIDs and STARs that can be used for departing or arriving the airport from/to the same direction. A SID or STAR may have restrictions attached to it depending on the aircraft equipment and capabilities. For instance, there are several SIDs to depart KLAS (Las Vegas) to get to KLAX (Los Angeles). The ROUTE used will be almost exactly the same as soon as you depart the runway. The difference will be whether the aircraft can fly the route UNASSISTED by ATC or not. The BOACH departures from KLAS to KLAX require RNAV capability, and if issued, the aircraft (pilot) will be expected to follow the published route using each individual waypoint shown from the end of the runway to the end of the SID...BOACH Intersection. If the aircraft can't do that and will require radar vectors, then the correct SID to file would be the MCCARRAN departure...once off the runway, ATC will provide vectors telling the pilot when to turn to what heading, etc, to get to BOACH Intersection. These same types of restrictions can be found on STARs...some of them are RNAV STARS and some are "vectored" STARs. You can tell the difference by looking at the top of the SID/STAR chart. It will say whether the SID/STAR is RNAV or not. You can get an understanding of these differences by reading the "Narrative" portion of the two different types on the SID/STAR charts. Choose an RNAV one, and the narrative will tell you EXACTLY what the aircraft (pilot) is supposed to do right after leaving the runway. No ATC "guidance" will be required using an RNAV procedure. However, choose a non-RNAV procedure, and the narrative will eventually say something like, "...expect vectors to (somewhere, something, etc)..." as part of the SID or STAR. ATC will have to provide vectors to the pilot to keep everything working right using these SIDs and STARs.FalconAF

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