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Flying HAS to be more difficult than this!!!!!!!

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I have been using FS2002 for about 6 months now -- I can download a new unfamiliar type aircraft , start it up , fly and land it easily within minutes. Now, I am pretty sure that, as a non-reallife flyer, I would find it impossible to get into some advanced aircraft cockpit and just simply take of and land in it. Probably couldn't even find where to put the key in the ignition!!!!!So , is this really just a game? Is there some aircraft/panel out there that really does simulate a complete aircraft and the experience of flying?Barry

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Bazza,are you trying to get it as real as it getsdo you know the difference between VFR/IFR?when IFR:flightplanning (SID's,airways,STAR's)???...flying is not just pushing a button to start up the engine and go fly wherever you want,nor do what you want to doyou CAN call it a game,but you should use it as a simulatorregards,Seba

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>I can download a new unfamiliar type aircraft , start it up , fly >and land it easily within minutes.God bless you, my son. Do you have anything else to sell?

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I'm not a real pilot either, and I've often thought about this.Having been on a couple of 'introduction' flights in real light aircraft, flying them *seemed* easy and I've often read remarks by real pilots that flying is actually more difficult in FS because of the lack of 'feel', the limited view (no periferal vision, having to use awkward controls to look around) and the unfamiliar controls.However:The real difficulty in real flight would be flight planning, managing your aircraft, navigation, communications, crew and looking out for traffic all at the same time, keeping in mind safety and efficiency, economy, passenger comfort, timetables and above all, the ability to respond to unusual situations, malfunctions, emergencies, weather and so on.In FS, flying can be as easy as jumping on your bike and you're on your way. But FS, combined with all the bells and whistles and add-ons, can be a real challenge too, if you make a proper flight plan (using proper procedures, charts, navaids, altitude restrictions, noise abatement restrictions, etc.) filing it with ATC (keeping in mind that FS ATC is highly simplified!), loading real weather, and sticking to the plan using all proper procedures and airline regulations, using as little fuel as possible, etc. etc. etc. Even then, even if you're keeping your virtual flight as realistic as possible-you won't be feeling the responsibilty for the lives of your passengers and crew, and you will be aware that even if you do crash, no harm is done to anyone.

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YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A GAME ... and nothing even romotely more..Yours truly,CB :-wave

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>read remarks by real pilots that flying is actually more >difficult in FS because of the lack of 'feel', the limited >view (no periferal vision, having to use awkward controls to >look around) and the unfamiliar controls. >As far as I'm concerned, for a real pilot who is also familiar with PC flight sims and their controls (sensitivity,etc), drop down windows, etc. won't have too much trouble. I tend to have a "feel" in matters such as trim & left drift, just because my mind relates to the real thing. When a 10,000 hr. real pilot can't fly MSFS with any profiency, it's usually more a matter of not being use to a simulated computer inviroment and it's obvious restrictions, than the program itself.L.Adamson

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In addition to the previous advice, there are more things to think about.......... such as passenger/cargo loading & density altitude. You might have to limit the amount of fuel you can carry, or even wait until dusk for the "heat" of the day to dissipate. There are even airports where waiting for a direction in wind change would be required to take off in the right direction. Density altitude is also brought into the picture regarding small twin engine aircraft. It might turn out, that given your particular gross weight, that you won't even be able to climb should one engine fail. And then there is all the rest concerning twin engine -- engine out operation & the quick reflexes to get it all under conrol. Especially if you're dealing with bad weather, ATC, and an ILS approach all at the same time!Many, many items & proceedures to learn. And then you might forget half of them & re-learn it all again!!L.Adamson

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LarryI placed two 18000 hr corporate pilots on MSFS and they found the aircraft to be twitchy, far to sensitive and lacking in feel.They were all over the place like newbies yet these guys fly commercial simulators which themselves are different.My son could do touch and goes in the FS98 Seneca all day but would not have pulled off an approach and landing in the real Seneca.Are the FS variety more difficult than the real?They are twitchier but not realistic so we yet have a long way to go to get a more realistic experience which doesnt just involve flight modelling but also hardware and the need for a better sky and weather invironemnt.Maybe by FS2004 a number of weak areas in the sim will be looked at including panel presentation, stopping the ridiculous 2D/3D marriage,Far better flight modelling capability especially in the slow flight area.Far Far better weather and Sky depictionPeter

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Mr. L Adamson,Are you suggesting that a 10,000 hour real pilot (whom mostly will work for an airline holding an ATP rating and multiple heavy jet type ratings) doesn't know the REAL feel of a flight simulated aircraft? All airline pilots spent numerous hours in, albiet multi-million dollar, level 4 simulators in initial and recurrent training. There input is paramount to producing and developing REALISTIC flight model fidelity. I agree with your point, regarding the restrictions of the sim itself. Yet, those restrictions can often be overcome. If MS commercial 3rd party aircraft companies can make beautiful aircraft as they do, don't you think MS could do a little (in respect to there enourmous financing and resources) effort to make a more realistic flight model? Yours Truly,CB :-wave

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>Larry >>I placed two 18000 hr corporate pilots on MSFS and they >found the aircraft to be twitchy, far to sensitive and >lacking in feel. >Peter,It was exactly your comments, that I was thinking of. The corporate pilots-------------- are not use to these little joysticks & sensitivity! I AM!!! Does this make me a better pilot, than the 18,000 hr corporate pilot.............. of course not!!Why not use other opinions such as those from Dave (DaveKDEN) or Eric Ernst (PIC767) who have regularly used MSFS as well as commercial piloting too. I have a feeling they won't be near as "twitchy" at the controls. Heck, I'm never twitchy at MSFS, but probably wouldn't do near as well with a commercial heavy!!As to the FS variety more difficult than real............ they must not be, because if they were...... I'd feel very comfortable getting right into a 747! But I'm NOT! Wouldn't even feel at home in a Citation X either :)L.Adamson

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Hey Barry, don't let em scare you :). I totally disagree that flying in MSFS is easier than in real life. Now, this is in reguards to general aviation aircraft, say Cessna or Piper variety single or light twins.I find that navigating in flight sim extrmemly hard going VFR, and flying IFR extremely hard due to lack of feedback in the controls (i.e. joystick).Once practicing all the everyday stuff that you need to do to become a proficient pilot, flying becomes second nature. Bback when I was a private pilot, with say 100 hours or so, I really had to think about what I was doing next, how to go about it, etc. Now I can pretty much jump in the plane (Cessna 172 S) and go.With all the neat gizmos out there these days it really takes the hard part out of flying. As an example, I recently made an IFR flight across state and back. Since I've been flying down here for about 2 years, I did my flight planning on my Palm V, called in my flight plan to Flight Service, and took off and got my clearence in the air. Using the GPS coupled to the 5" multi-function display and 2-axis autopilot, I pretty much kicked back and listened to music all the way over.Pilots are WAY overpaid :), until something bad happens of course...mw

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>Mr. L Adamson, >>Are you suggesting that a 10,000 hour real pilot (whom >mostly will work for an airline holding an ATP rating and >multiple heavy jet type ratings) doesn't know the REAL feel >of a flight simulated aircraft? No............. I'm suggesting just what I said. Trim, left drift, & any other "feelings" out minds can inject into the simulation. >If MS commercial 3rd party aircraft >companies can make beautiful aircraft as they do, don't you >think MS could do a little (in respect to there enourmous >financing and resources) effort to make a more realistic >flight model? >The developers of MSFS are still budgeted & limited with regards to expenses & amount of programmers, not to mention time retraints. It's not as open end financing as everyone seems to believe! Besides, what's wrong with commercial 3rd party vendors spending addtional thousands of hours to get aircraft up to spec, for the most demanding simmers?L.Adamson

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>I totally disagree >that flying in MSFS is easier than in real life. MS is a "cake walk"! Never once have I worried about an emergency landing site over a large MS city, or running out of fuel! The "pause" button is also great, when ATC gives me a command for a particular runway & I have to stop to get out the map. It must be easier!!!!!! :) L.Adamson

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You mean you haven't practiced short field landings on rooftops before? If your route takes you over a city, I would certainly make sure I get some dual practicing those. Much better than landing on congested highways these days, what with all the road rage down there. I'd rather take my chances on the roof of some big building. And if you overshoot? Just land below :) (in case you can't tell i'm kidding).As for the second part, I'm not sure I understand that one. Maybe ask for a progressive? After all, the taxiways are labeled. I just generally find it harder in MS being spacially aware of my surrounds.mw

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I am envious of your skills. I usually fly twin props. On the two occassions that I have flown the heavies (737 and 777), everything has gone fine until trying to land these beasts. Both times I have stalled within one or two miles of the runway :-halo . Apparently my gaming skills need improvement!

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Barry,Yes, you are correct, for all practical purposes, it IS a game . . . for enjoyment. However . . .The However is: You can make it as difficult as you desire -- Point>Percision Flight Sim Yoke and throttle controls. Radio accessories, all the bells and whistles for control. Add on programs . . . I run FS 2002 and have managed to get Pro Flight 2000 to work perfectly in 2002. Add Flight Deck Companion to that, and FS Nav and real weather, and what you have is a atmosphere which, if, you follow procedures, and attempt to make it 'as real as it gets' with first class aircraft, flight plans, ATC and a second officer and crew, life gets pretty busy on a flight from KEWR to KHXD (Hilton Head).My point is, I am a real world pilot with more hours than even I care to remember, . I can no longer fly due to a heart condition, so Simming takes its place, and believe me, because of the lack of certain physical inputs, it, at times, is more involved than real world aviation. Agreed, the traffic AI is not as heavy as real world, nor the results if you make a tragic mistake, but it CAN, get real heavy if you program it and yourself for it to be that way.Myself, I like to handle emergencies, the unexpected and try configurations that I would not attempt in real life. But it is enjoyable and, with the room door closed, a little red lighting and everything running, at times you can get your pulse rate up quite a bit . . . it's all how you look at it.Best Regards,Clayton T. DopkeMajor, USAF (Retired)"Drac"

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Ouch!! Hopefully for demonstration purposes only :-lol . You probably already figured this out - less ailerons and more rudder will make those landings easier. But without question, landing is no easy task if you fly it manually.

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Hi Clayton,Glad to hear your comments. I would like to fly, but cannot for medical reasons as well. However, I find that virtual flight is very challenging, particularly if I leave all the settings on the most difficult level, add a cloud layer, add some good wind... Top that off with IFR (sans GPS, which I suspect from your post you did not have when you first started flying) and I think anybody would be adequately challenged. Flying the B52 must have been a thrill :-) .

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About 10 years ago, a student pilot returning from a cross-country solo, ran out of fuel over a very crowded shopping center. After thinking about roof tops, she successfuly stalled the Cessna 152 into a tree next to a video store. Neither the pilot nor plane suffered much damage. Good emergency landing on part of the student pilot, but the moral of the story is to put in more fuel at the "other" end!And speaking of "road rage", another pilot (guy this time) ran out of fuel over our crowded freeway. He found a spot between two vehicles & successfully set the Cessna Cardinal RG down between them. Unfortunately a friend of my sister, who was driving the small pickup truck in front of him, slammed on her brakes when she saw an airplane in her review mirror! Luckily, the plane only suffered prop, cowl, & nosewheel damage, & will fly again!! Other than that, two planes have crashed, nearly in my backyard in the 2 1/2 years I've lived here. The second one was 600' away! But that's what you get for living under a small airport pattern!L.Adamson --- next to U-42 (under KSLC ClassB)

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I agree that compared to the real thing, this is a game.However, during the past year or so, I've invited 4 real-life pilots to do short flight on FS2000 and FS2002. They are [1] a 62 year old private pilot (and instructor) who owns a Beech Bonanza for over 30 years now, [2] a current United Airlines B737 first officer, [3] a retired PanAm B747 captain, previously a DC-10 captain with the old National Airlines, and [3] a current United Airlines B767-300ER captain.They all tried to fly the FS2002 Baron 58 and the PIC 767 aircraft. They tried hard to fly these 2 planes many many times but they all failed every time and crashed. Remember, two of these guys fly on real-life United Aircraft everyday, but they could simple not hand-fly the PIC 767 (which is IMHO the most hand-flyable FSim aircraft arround).My pilot friends all told me that if real-life flying was like flying the FS2002 Baron 58 and PIC 767, thonsands of people would die everyday on airline accidents. Now, listed to this: they all agreed that real-life flying (as far as controlling the aircraft and making it do everything you want) was a piece of cake compared to flying the PIC 767. One of them has been formally trained on the United B744 and he claims that the B744 is a pretty easy plane to fly in real life.I guess the rest of us, non-real-life-pilots, will never be able to tell for sure -- Go figure,J. Padron (KMIA)---

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Larry,I have enjoyed reading your responses to this thread very much as Your perspective strikes me as very sincere and real as compared to just fervent belief, as you stated the "feel" of our hardware is so much a part of the equation and in need of some serious re-design. I really miss my old thrustmaster stick for its "heavy feel". Do you have any recommendations as to a good yoke or stick that

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Barry,I know your post has prompted lots of replies (some less than kind!) but having thought about your original post I can offer this response to you:YES! you are quite correct - it is pretty easy to download a typical (add-on) aircraft and take off and land - however, there is some skill involved in both taking off and landing cleanly, as opposed to creating a pile of virtual-rubble!I would however challenge you on one point - I bet you cant do that with the Bell 206B helicopter - or if you think that you can and it is also fair game - you are definately not 'flying' it properly! :-smile12I could also give you a couple of alternatives (helicopters) - which will keep you busy for quite a while :) - and they ARE pretty close to the REAL THING! and if you care to check out the 'Rotorheads Forum' and ask about the 'hoversafe academy' and think you want to give helos a work out - that's a good place to start!Barry, the bottom line is YES! it is a game - (it even says so on the box!) - but 'boy' what a game we have got!!Other posts have referred to the fact it isnt just about taking off and landing.... that is so true and I'm sure you agree?I have discovered and flown in parts of the World (even in your Country's 'outback) that I will never get to see in real life and for me that is 'my gig'!So you see - what might have been an innocent (and 'correct' initial take on FS2002) was a little premature on your part and bearing in mind that many of us here started with aircraft and panels which were little more than wire-frame graphics - I am sure you will see why you got the responses :)

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