Ok-first off this program is great! Since the "slow controller fix" voices are realistic and everything is running smoothly and great on my setup.Now a couple of questions and knitpicks-Tuning atis-it always starts at the beginning and stops at the end. In the real world it starts wherever the tape is when you tune in and it cycles over and over-not a big deal but wonder if it could work this way?One thing I have learned flying a GA plane coast to coast 3 times now is that atc works a little different in different areas of the country.Anyway with that in mind a couple things I have noticed that are at least different from where I fly. When contacting ground for your clearance I have never been told to contact tower on xxx.xx-just given the taxi clearance (perhaps this is included as a courtesy for sim pilots?).I flew from kfnt to kptk tonight on the sim. I wanted to do the Loc BC 27 L approach-which I was able to select from the RC menu (how cool!). Where I fly (Michigan) it seems to be assumed that when you request an approach like this that you will get vectors-to do it on your own you have to request it. RC seems to do the opposite-expect you to do it on your own-I don't know if this is a geographic difference or a limitation. I requested the approach and got approved to do it on my own-then saw the option request vectors (or something like that)-I assumed that would give me vectors to the approach I requested-selected that-and suddenly was being vectored for the ils 9 which I had not requested. Is it possible to get vectored to the approach you request or does RC assume you will do it on your own in all cases?I was also a little shocked when approach read the correct clearance-xx miles from the outer marker-cleared for the ils app when established..etc..etc and the pilot responded "cleared for all that" or something like that! I thought we are supposed to avoid slang as pilots ! :-)Anyway-fantastic program-it would be interesting for a new user like me to understand what remaining limitations of the program are. One other thing-when getting my taxi clearance the pilot always responds "at 14" or at "16" or something like that-what does that mean?Also any chance of when getting vectors to an ils approach getting them a little closer for a GA pilot-seems like I am being sent out miles out like a heavy jet pilot.Also-how about having the controller screw up and send you through the approach course every once in a while-happens to me about 30% of the time... :-lolA great program-thanks again!http://members.telocity.com/~geof43/Geofdog2.gif

I dont beta test nor represent the developers, but here are my thoughts:>Now a couple of questions and knitpicks- >Tuning atis-it always starts at the beginning and stops at >the end. In the real world it starts wherever the tape is >when you tune in and it cycles over and over-not a big deal >but wonder if it could work this way? you are correct for real life ATIS, it would be nice here. Not a big deal though. When contacting ground for your clearance I have >never been told to contact tower on xxx.xx-just given the >taxi clearance (perhaps this is included as a courtesy for >sim pilots?). not sure exactly what your asking here. When I fly, I oftenwill get clearances from out of CD at PDX, but at TTD (tower only)they will issue it, at KEUG I often get it from ground conrollers.Is it possible to get vectored to the approach you request or >does RC assume you will do it on your own in all cases?you will either get vectors at RC descretion OR you request theactual Approach which you should fly as published (RC will notcontrol as per a published approach - just way to complex consideringthe shear quantity of approaches) >"cleared for all that" or something like that! I thought we >are supposed to avoid slang as pilots ! :-) Ya, funny isnt it. I was IFR in the clag arriving from Bend ORto KPDX (portland) and was given a fairly extensive clearance similarto what we have in RC, I responded with a very authoritative "WILCO".ATC came back with a more authoritative "will comply with what exactly!" lesson: gotta readback the clearance.>>the pilot always responds "at 14" or at "16" or something >like that-what does that mean? that implies a gate number, I know you can set this but it appearsthat if one is not set a (random?) one is assigned. There mustbe a way for this to toggle off for GA and lite air charter work.>>Also any chance of when getting vectors to an ils approach >getting them a little closer for a GA pilot-seems like I am >being sent out miles out like a heavy jet pilot. JD and I have gone around the bend on this one many a time. If I was given a 20 mile outbound to pick up an ILS in my 172, ATC would get a call. Maybe this is true for the heavies, but GA - no way. ATC WANTS to get the little boys in close, very close, so they dont dick up the approach profiles for the carriers. On the gound and to the ramp quick - as they say. I actually thought I had a good idea for this at one time, guess maybe Ver4??>>Also-how about having the controller screw up and send you >through the approach course every once in a while-happens to >me about 30% of the time... :-lol agreed, amazed me when it first happened to me alsol, that was 25 minute hack job I could have done without (missed my groundtransport at that!)>>A great program-thanks again! agreed, very well done.>>>>>>>http://members.telocity.com/~geof43/Geofdog2.gif

< a bunch of snippin' for space> >I was also a little shocked when approach read the correct >clearance-xx miles from the outer marker-cleared for the ils >app when established..etc..etc and the pilot responded >"cleared for all that" or something like that! I thought we >are supposed to avoid slang as pilots ! :-) Hmmm I've heard the "we'll do all that" response on more than oneoccasion. I know it's not "by the book", but I guess it reallyall depends on if PIC and ATC know what each others referingto, and each is happy with it, so-be-it :-)>Anyway-fantastic programCertainly is Ollie :-lol>Also any chance of when getting vectors to an ils approach >getting them a little closer for a GA pilot-seems like I am >being sent out miles out like a heavy jet pilot. > Once your on downwind try requesting a short final. He/she'll usuallygive it to youJim

Is this a workaround e.g. at that point you are going to a visual approach, or is this still in the parameters of the ils approach-e.g. missed approach still allowed?http://members.telocity.com/~geof43/Geofdog2.gif

http://members.telocity.com/~geof43/Geofdog2.gif"not sure exactly what your asking here. "My question wasn't where you get the clearance-but the giving of the tower freq. and being told to contact it after taxi at the end of a clearance. (By the way-when flying last year at ksee my clearance was given by tower at the end of the runway-interesting when my whole clearance to traverse the LA basin was changed completely and a line of 4 aircraft ready to takeoff were behind me).At least where I fly (class c and d and where I've flown)-clearance doesn't give you the tower freq. and either does ground-dept. freq of course always given in the clearance. The "when you get there contact tower on xx.xxx" followed by the pilot's response "w'ell give him (politically incorrect :-) ) a call" in the taxi clearance..... If I understand what you are saying it sounds like the only approach you can get vectored to is the ils.I guess what I found confusing is after I requested the loc bc approach, a menu option of vectors for the approach (or something like that) appeared-I assumed selecting that would vector me for the approach I had chosen. After selecting it, it lined me up for the ils approach on the opposite runway which I had not requested and was not heading for.

As Jim said the 'work around' which has been implemented is the ability to ask approach to vector you for short final.Check through the approach menus at the point you feel you are being sent too far from the airport; the request 'Short Final' should be there.If the request is accepted you will be turned onto base immediately and then vectored to intercept the localiser at the appropriate moment.All the best,John

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A few things. If you want vectors to a back course approach, simply request that runway. RC will vector you to that final. RC doesn't care if it's a back course or an ILS, it doesn't know the difference. If you want to fly the full approach on your own, then request the IAP approach for that runway.Next: At many airports, (real world) tower will give you the tower frequency, they will not expect you to find it on your own. That is one of the functions of ground control. Some airports may put the local control frequency on the atis, and then ground control need not issue it. There is no standard so it may be done different ways at different airports.Next: There is no requirement for standard phraseology for a pilot. As a controller I sometimes prefer that the pilot simply says "Roger". That means they have heard and understood my transmission and are responsible for the instruction I gave them. Some places, like mine "KORD" requires a readback of all headings and altitudes. That is it. The rest I would prefer they would say "Got all that". It leaves more time for me to talk, and less time that I have to listen.All phraseology requirements are placed on the controller for ensuring that two way communication is complete. If they read it back, I have to ensure that what they read back is correct. Larry :-)

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"At many airports, (real world) tower will give you the tower frequency, they will not expect you to find it on your own. That is one of the functions of ground control"I'll accept your word on that(I assume you meant clearance-not tower(if you are talking to the tower you already know it :-))-I have flown my plane to a multitude of airports in 38 states and my flight with RC was the first time I have experienced this, which is why it surprised me-doesn't mean it doesn't happen-I just haven't ever seen it yet. :-)As far as "cleared for all that" here is an excerpt from the DFW air traffic web page. It is at least what is pretty much drummed into us pilots at safety seminars. I would consider it more appropriate if things are all that busy to say "cleared for the ils 27 approach"-but "cleared for all that" I would expect most would say is poor radio technique and not acceptable-and the airman's information manual is pretty clear about "slang". It also violates "Pilots should acknowledge each radio communication with ATC using the appropriate aircraft identification, and read back critical information such as runway and altitude assignment". "All that" doesn't quite seem to do that.ATC CommunicationsA critical component of the ATC system is the radio communication between pilots and controllers. Poor radio techniques increase the likelihood of communication errors, and increase the likelihood that a simple communication error will result in an incident with serious consequences.For ATC communication to be complete and effective, it is essential that pilots and controllers utilize the words and phrases in the Aeronautical Information Manual, Pilot/Controller Glossary. Pilots should acknowledge each radio communication with ATC using the appropriate aircraft identification, and read back critical information such as runway and altitude assignment. When critical information is not read back, the opportunity for the controller to correct the error is lost.You said there is no requirement for phraseology for a pilot-The airman's information manual-section 4-2-1- c> states:Good phraseology enhances safety and is the mark of a professional pilot. Jargon, chatter, and "CB" slang have no place in ATC communications. The Pilot/Controller Gloassary is the same glossary used in FAA Order 7110.65 Air Traffic Control.Although this technically may not be a "requirement" I think it is pretty clear.

since this might lead to bad habits:delete winwood1doallt.wavcopy winwood1clrd4.wav winwood1doallt.wav

Cute! :(http://members.telocity.com/~geof43/Geofdog2.gif

Geof,You should have been on some of the flights I've been on. Apparently technique to some of these airline pilots is an afterthought.It's the same listening to Jeffco. The tower guys and gals really get into it when some Bozo comes along with no technique at all. They don't really say anything, it's the tone in their voice that's a dead giveaway.(additional)However, if you deal with SoCal approach you don't read back or you'll step all over the controller. Most pilots respond with only the flight number (i.e. "1123") or just "Got it", or even "K".Even when KDEN is really busy pilots aren't to read back, or they step on the controller.

amazing what you can make the pilot or controller say, with a little renaming. now where is that 1fu.wav :-lol

I believe it's been renamed "unable.wav" :-lol

Ahh -the tone thing ! :-)So you are out in Colorado! I flew to Centenial a few years ago-flew over the Coronna pass to go to Leadville so I could get the high airport certificate but my prop started throwing oil and I had to head back to Centenial. Beautiful part of the country-wish I could live out there! We went out there 4 years in a row-really like the water park!I flew quite a bit in Socal last December-didn't find it a problem like I thought it would be-except as I mentioned-when I contacted ground at ksee and asked for clearance they told me to pick it up from the tower before takeoff-and it was a completely different clearance than I had filed. It is very often busy in the Detroit area where I fly most of my time also-sorry if some of the terminology in RC took me by surprise.Again-maybe "cleared for all that" is used-I just have never heard it in my flying career-and I think there are more valuable and clear ways to shorten a reply.A shot of downtown La from the Deb at 10,000 ft.Ihttp://members.telocity.com/~geof43/Geofdog2.gif

ROFLMAO