Hi Fellows,I don't know if this has been discussed yet, but I have these to share with you and perhaps fix it in the next update if and only if these are indeed problems.a)Late instruction to contact next controller on climb resulting in Altitude deviations.b)Approach Controllers give very tight corner to intercept (ILS APP).c)Still not a very good software intercepting with AI operations.A)Sometimes you (I)get my intructions to contact next controller with only less than 1000FT (Climb out)to my assingned FL and by the time my F/O does the contact, there will be as short as 200-500FT to go. In complex Aircrafts(PMDG 744/ LVD 767)VNAV is already levelling off. The Controller now thinks you have levelled and accuse you of busting Altitude.I did lots of flying this past week end (all on real time). UUEE-KJFK, KSFO-RCTP, SAEZ-SBGR-EDDF, EDDF-LLBG. This is where "B" comes in.B)Approch put me at 8000FT on downwind to 04L to JFK then 3500FT at base and asked me to decend to the MSA of 1900FT to intercept the localizer. The problem is, he only put me at 6 miles to the runway and by the time the turn was completed, the G/S was right at the bottom dot.Doing all my landings manually and using "FSPAX" for this corner was not pleasant even though I pulled it off with hard idling throttle. Approach put me at 6000FT downwind and eventually (LOC INTC)3500 MSA for 07R Franfurt arrival at just 9 miles and again this was not pleasant for manual landing a 744 (Had to do "GA" on this one and tried again with expectation. A straight in LLBG approach to RWY 12 was usherred to ma at 5500FT MSA with just 9 miles which was too high on the G/S.C)AI operation!!!...Not quite resolved with RCv4 (Going back to using "AI SMOOTH" next flights). On base leg to EDDF there was a very close call with an Aircraft runing from left to right just 50 feet from my glareshield. On final RWY 12 to LLBG, BA, SWISS, Lufthansa (My AI conterpart)were in front of me (very close separation). The BA landed, the Swiss and LH were waived off to do GA. Here comes the cliff hanger, the BA has now vacated the Runway, but I was close to the runway and heard my call sign "Lufthansa 686 go around" thinking that was a call to my AI counterpart and knowing the runway is now vaccated; I landed only to pull my licence from me. (When do I get it back?.In all a great program, but a long list like this will make it even better for all. Thnx

a) in real life, the controller will try to make your climb continuous, but it's not his goal. if you were assigned 12000, that's what you should have the fmc programmed for (i guess, i never use the things). why would the controller care if you had leveled off at 12000. that's what you were told anyway. now if your cruise altitude was 390, and that was what you were climbing to, and didn't get the handoff/clearance in time to continue your climb, that's not really a rc problem. but then again, i may be totally mis-understanding the issue.:( i've probably flown thousands of these, and the beta tester another coupld of thousand. i don't think any of us have seen a problem here. are you flying this or the fmc? when you're given a heading to fly, are you turning, or programming the fmc to turn?3) sometimes the ai aren't off the runway in time. there is a utility that speeds them up. rc did exactly what it was supposed to do, make you go around. you're landing was a violation, and you now know what happens to violators ;-)jd

>Hi Fellows,>I don't know if this has been discussed yet, but I have these>to share with you and perhaps fix it in the next update if and>only if these are indeed problems.>a)Late instruction to contact next controller on climb>resulting in Altitude deviations.>b)Approach Controllers give very tight corner to intercept>(ILS APP).>c)Still not a very good software intercepting with AI>operations.>>A)Sometimes you (I)get my intructions to contact next>controller with only less than 1000FT (Climb out)to my>assingned FL and by the time my F/O does the contact, there>will be as short as 200-500FT to go. In complex Aircrafts(PMDG>744/ LVD 767)VNAV is already levelling off. The Controller now>thinks you have levelled and accuse you of busting Altitude.I don't quite understand what you are saying happens here. When you are assigned an altitude, lets say you are climbing and it's 6000 feet, you are supposed to level off at 6,000 until you are instructed to go on to a higher altitude. How can you get "busted" by ATC for doing what you are told to do? Until the controller tells you to climb higher, you level at your last assigned altitude, so it doesn't matter when the controller contacts you.

All,A) In short the clearance comes too late and if you are told to climb to FL230 while your initial cruise alttitude is say FL310. In this case, if the VNAV is at FL221 this is where my new instruction will come in to contact the next controller. By the time the communication is completed between the last and the next controller for the new assign alttitide, the aircraft is about to level off at FL230 and this is where the controller thinks I have levelled at FL230 and starts the warning (Use PMDG 744 and the problem will be clear).B)I always use the MCP controls during this face of the flight when I'm told to turn and decend to XXX alttitude during approches. The problem is, the controller puts you too high and short distance to MSA to intercept LOC which you end up too high after completing the turn, the G/S is always already at the buttom and you MUST do a hard decend to catch up (This did not match both published ILS approach for EDDF 07R & KJFK 04L or LLBG RWY 12). Example 07R to EDDF has MSA of 4000 which should be exterblished well before 12.6nm from FRD VOR of the runway (https://164.214.2.62/products/digitalaero/terminals/v0513/Europe_North_Africa_Middle_East/Frankfurt%20Main%20%20EDDF/ils_rwy_07r.pdf). RCV4 controller told me at 6000FT baseleg to now start a turn to intercept LOC just 6nm out to the RWY. Please fly the approach to JFK 04L and compare again.C)AI smothing will solve this on my next flights. ThnxGus

Hi Gus,I just flew the 04L approach into KJFK coming in from the North on a flight from Boston.Approach initially brought me down to 7000'. On downwind I was brought down to 3000 and on base to 2000.I was vectored so that I intercepted the localiser (at 1900 feet) 10 mles from the runway, so I was established on the localizer for about 4 miles before meeting the glideslope.Just one thought (though it shouldn't make a difference), in the general tab of RC what do you have selected under the 'Heavy', 'Jet' etc options.All the best,John

Hi Gus,>A) In short the clearance comes too late and if you are told>to climb to FL230 while your initial cruise alttitude is say>FL310. In this case, if the VNAV is at FL221 this is where my>new instruction will come in to contact the next controller.>By the time the communication is completed between the last>and the next controller for the new assign alttitide, the>aircraft is about to level off at FL230 and this is where the>controller thinks I have levelled at FL230 and starts the>warning (Use PMDG 744 and the problem will be clear).I also had to adapt after a long discussion here :http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...id=14434&page=4See it positive. The times of boring "just VNAV" flights are over with RC4 :D.Seriously, it's even a real world technique for many Airliners to use VS Mode instead of VNAV, if you got a low level clearance and a new clearance for a continuous climb can't be expected. Maybe that's applicable for the 747 too. Especially below 10000 it's really recommended due to the initially high climb rates. I haven't flown a 744 for quite some time, but if I remember correctly, you can also derate your climb power used by VNAV.Of course you need to re-initiate your climb immediately and not take the time to let your Altitude capture finish the level-off. You need to adapt to ATC, not the other way round ;-).>B)I always use the MCP controls during this face of the flight>when I'm told to turn and decend to XXX alttitude during>approches. The problem is, the controller puts you too high>and short distance to MSA to intercept LOC which you end up>too high after completing the turn, the G/S is always already>at the buttom and you MUST do a hard decend to catch up ...>Example 07R to EDDF has MSA of 4000 which should be exterblished >well before 12.6nm from FRD VOR of the runwayEDDF has three different MSAs (3100, 3500, 4300), depending from which direction you come. Try to put 3500 (or even 3100) instead of 4000 in the MSA field in the initial Controller Info window, then you get more "handable" altitudes/distances for a heavy (at least so it seems to me). I use an MD82 which also needs some time to descend and reduce speed simultaneuosly. EDDF is almost my home airport in FS, I never had problems with it so far.Mike

>Hi Gus,>>I just flew the 04L approach into KJFK coming in from the>North on a flight from Boston.>>Approach initially brought me down to 7000'. On downwind I was>brought down to 3000 and on base to 2000.>>I was vectored so that I intercepted the localiser (at 1900>feet) 10 mles from the runway, so I was established on the>localizer for about 4 miles before meeting the glideslope.>>Just one thought (though it shouldn't make a difference), in>the general tab of RC what do you have selected under the>'Heavy', 'Jet' etc options.>>All the best,>>JohnHi John,I only fly LVD 767 & PMDG 744, so the call is always "HEAVY" (which is checked from option tab) and I have never been vectored this far at this low alttitude. I'm always high at short distance to "LOC" intercept and I as said G/S is already down below. On this 04L approach in particular, the clearance to me was "Delta 31 fly heading XXX you are 6 miles from rwy decend (3000)and mentain 1900 until esterblish on the localizer"Also to clarify the late hand off on climb out, by following the standard procudure (STEP by STEP)which is dailing the FL given to you by the controller on the MCP ALT window and not the initial cruise altittide. With this done, VNAV is always near the FL before the next ALT is given by and dialed into ALT window. ThnxGus

EDDF has three different MSAs (3100, 3500, 4300), depending from which direction you come. Try to put 3500 (or even 3100) instead of 4000 in the MSA field in the initial Controller Info window, then you get more "handable" altitudes/distances for a heavy (at least so it seems to me).Mike,May be this is my problem. I never changed the default setting for the MSA. I use the default one given in controller window and that could be the reason. I will try changing it on my next flight and report. About the ATC altittude lateness, in real life they are given plenty of time between feet to go and next controller hand off. Beacuse of this I end up using mostly FLCH instead of the VNAV however, I have no such problem with the controllers on decending. ThnxGus

Hi Gus,One point,The call RC gives you would be 6 miles from the marker, not 6 miles from the runway.The runway will be several miles further away than the marker.All the best,John

I fly the 767-300 all the time and have never had a problem with assigned altitudes and being yelled at by the controllers. I also do not use V-Nav, since Mike Rays book seems to recommend using vert Rate instead, and he should know, since he made a career of flying all the 700 series aircraft including the 747. I typically get stepped up to my cruise altitude by ATC , and many times level off prior to my next ATC assigned altitude, where I begin the climb again. No problem at all, on dizens of flights and no warnings about busting altitudes. As far as being to high on approach, I wonder what speed the approach is being flown at. If you are descending onto the approach path and trucking along at 250 knots, then you are probably going to wind up being too high and too fast. I try to slow down so that when I am entering the base leg, I am down around 180 knots and able to descend at a good rate if ATC calls for it, with some additional flaps and a blast or two of spoilers. If I am going too fast, then both descending and slowing up at the same time , become impossible, especially in the 767. Once turned for the Outmarker, you have about 10 miles to get everything set up , which should be no problem at all if piloting technique is correct. Just my 2 cents.....

>All,>A) In short the clearance comes too late and if you are told>to climb to FL230 while your initial cruise alttitude is say>FL310. In this case, if the VNAV is at FL221 this is where my>new instruction will come in to contact the next controller.>By the time the communication is completed between the last>and the next controller for the new assign alttitide, the>aircraft is about to level off at FL230 and this is where the>controller thinks I have levelled at FL230 and starts the>warning (Use PMDG 744 and the problem will be clear).You must recognize that a climb clearance is never too late. ATC has the final say in how you will be cleared to your final cruise. Sometimes you get cleared to an intermediate altitude before getting clearance to go higher. If you are getting yelled at by ATC then it is because you are taking too long to ack the instruction and to execute the continuation of the climb.I fly LDS 767 and have not experienced what you are experiencing. Time, patience and practice will enable you to be quicker to respond to ATC while managing/flying the complex aircraft. Just stick with it! ;-)>B)I always use the MCP controls during this face of the flight>when I'm told to turn and decend to XXX alttitude during>approches. The problem is, the controller puts you too high>and short distance to MSA to intercept LOC which you end up>too high after completing the turn, the G/S is always already>at the buttom and you MUST do a hard decend to catch up I usually hand fly below 10000' and have not experienced what you say.When I don't feel like hand-flying, I use the MCP for heading/altitude changes. Even in those cases, I have plenty of time to respond to ATC instructions and manuveur the aircraft into position to intercept the LOC (below glideslope) and to complete a normal instrument approach and landing.Perhaps your speed is too high, and that coupled with any delay in setting and executing commands on the MCP could be the root cause of the problems you are having.-michael

Hi Bob,I see you leave in Atlanta too...where? I'm writting from Duluth (Work) right now, but I leave in Alpharetta. Anyway, my approach speed is correct as mostly ATC (RC)will ask me to mentain a certain speed well before he/she ask for the localizer esterblishment, so speed is not the problem. The problem I'm having is the distance and altittude assinged to me by this same ATC (too high and too short to intercept LOC). The longest distance for me so far to intercept LOC is 9 miles and the very same time this is where I'm also asked to decend to MSA (this is my whole problem). As far as climb out, I have never levelled between my assinged FL and my initial target cruise FL, but I think the problem is the VNAV which climbs faster than ATC can communicate. If you look at my flights, they are all long hauls and the 767/744 are all heavy which require "CLB" power for fuel efficiency not "CLB 1/2". ThnxGus

>Hi Bob,>I see you leave in Atlanta too...where? I'm writting from>Duluth (Work) right now, but I leave in Alpharetta. Anyway, my>approach speed is correct as mostly ATC (RC)will ask me to>mentain a certain speed well before he/she ask for the>localizer esterblishment, so speed is not the problem. The>problem I'm having is the distance and altittude assinged to>me by this same ATC (too high and too short to intercept LOC).>The longest distance for me so far to intercept LOC is 9 miles>and the very same time this is where I'm also asked to decend>to MSA (this is my whole problem). As far as climb out, I have>never levelled between my assinged FL and my initial target>cruise FL, but I think the problem is the VNAV which climbs>faster than ATC can communicate. If you look at my flights,>they are all long hauls and the 767/744 are all heavy which>require "CLB" power for fuel efficiency not "CLB 1/2". Thnx>Gus Gus,I live in Norcross. The speed that ATC normally slows you to is the 250 knot speed below 10,000 and maybe one more speed reduction. That is still way to fast for a proper approach, in my opinion. Try 180 as I suggested and see what happens. As I am abeam the airport on downwind, I usually go down to 200 knots and 15 degrees of flaps, base 170-180 at flaps 20, and intercept the LOC at around 165 gradually slowing to recommend approach speed on the FMC Vref plus 5, which on the 767 is 145 knots. Forget V Nav,,,,, let me say it again,.,.. forget V-Nav, like in don't turn it on... Set each assigned altitude in the altitude window and hit FLCh and let the aircraft fly to the next assigned altitude. If you do that and and slow down on approach, you will have no problem at all. If you let V Nav fly the plane, you better get real good at missed approaches..... :)If you really want to learn how to fly the Boeing Aircraft , get the book on the top of this web page. http://www.utem.com/manuals.html

i smell a pizza night coming up :-)

Hi,VNAV (either manually flown using FD bars or letting it to the autopilot) is usually more efficient during climb (it will smoothly command progressive attitude reductions for flap retraction, start an acceleration to CLB/CRZ speed after passing 10000 ft and so on). Most airlines (in their AOMs, at least in the 5 or 6 that I own) do reccommend to use VNAV (and LNAV) to the maximum extent possibile because the FMC knows better than the pilot which is the best attitude/power setting to achieve the best economy. Obviously, a certain "mastering" of the AFDS is absolutely fundamental in getting everything working flawlessly. If you know how to use correctly your AFDS (slightly different from each airiliner type), you'll get the most in good flying and total adherence to the ATC restraints. Keep in mind that if you're cleared with an altitude restriction (say "descent to xxx, I neeed you leve in xx miles"-this could or couldn't be done with VNAV, try to enable V/S and set an higher rate and see where the green arc is going...), you should check to be able to adhere to this restriction before hitting "acknowledge": on the contrary, you'll be yelled to by the controller. I fly regularly the LDS 767 and both the PMDGs 737s and 747s along with RCV4, and I find using VNAV perfectly OK even with "step climbs" or descents as ordered by RC controllers. If you're cleared for an "immediate descent" (not a PD one), you may wish to use the "DES NOW" option in the FMC or use the V/S, at your discretion. You may resort to VNAV again when the purple diamond in the ND is nearing the middle of the vertical line. Sometimes it is easier to use V/S to achieve small altitude changes (less then 4000 ft and this also the reccommended procedure found on most AOMs) even during climb or descent. When below 10000 ft, V/S and HDG SEL are the preferred modes of AFDS operation, so that you can precisely adhere, in speed, altitude and heading, to the controller's wishes.Best regards,