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Guest woottsbj25

737-600/700 drop on throttle-back

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Hi everyone,I have noticed that when on final approach, if you throttle back at anything more than 30 feet the aircraft just plummets like a stone. On other 737 simulations, Payware and Freeware, I can throttle back at 200 feet and let it glide in.I don't know if this has been posted before...Regards,Tom WoottonCEO of Air be Virtual Airlineswww.airbe.tk

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So I am assuming that it is real that it will drop when throttled back?Thats OK, I was just wondering which was actually real.Regards,Tom WoottonCEO of Air be Virtual Airlineswww.airbe.tk

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Hello Tom,I dont think this is normal. Check the statement on www.b737.org.uk.I remain a file in the download Section about Landing performance. One statement of an training captain ist, that a firm landing in touchdown zone is a better landing as a soft landing out of the zone and you can read "not to fload the 737". Buy the way, I dont have this problem. Reaching treshold and at 10-15 feet RA turn back the throttles to idle and flare everythink looks normal. I prefer the firm landig.I search for the linkbest regards Stefan

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>Buy the way, I dont have this problem. Reaching treshold and>at 10-15 feet RA turn back the throttles to idle and flare>everythink looks normal. I prefer the firm landig.>>I search for the link>>best regards >>StefanStefan, there a huge difference between 10-15ft RA (the right way however) and 200ft RA...

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Yes, your right and I don

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Randy,>>Goes to show you what the others are modelled like eh ?<

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Hey Sean, I might have missed this but how OLD did you say you were so I can reason how someone can make such a claim? I suppose everyone in the world who has not personally done something hands on could possible know anything about a subject. Now that is funny.[h4]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smithhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/betaimg.jpgAMD 64 3200+ | ASUS KV8 DELUXE | GFORCE 5700 ULTRA @535/1000 | Maxtor 6Y080M0 SATA 80 GIG | 512 DDR 400 | Windows Xp Pro | Windows Xp Pro 64 |

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Well Sean, I certainly do not wish to provide a grounds for a personality battle but I was suprised at you comment towards me. You are ols enough to know what you were implying towards me. I think if you have issues with what I say then speak clearly about it. I am also old enough to deal with it. "I made no claim just asked a question of how you can be such an authority on everything Boeing, especially the landing; it is you that made the claim when you once again

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Randy,>>No product per se was mentioned and I hold to my statement, namely that if you can cut the throttles 200' and glide down like a Cessna then there is something off about the modelling in regards to a 737, one does not need to be a pilot to understand physics here.<

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Sean,Jumping in here in defense of Randy for his remarks on the flight model.I will qualify my statements by asking you to have a look at what I do for a living after my signature.First off, you can't compare the gliding characteristics of an airliner in clean configuration at altitude to those of one at flaps 30 and vref+5. I've done more than my fair share of jump seating and have flown the 737-200 flight sim so I have a very good grasp on what's going on. If you are brave (read stupid) enough to pull all your power off at 200' RA at vref+5 then be prepared to exceed the allowable sink rate at touchdown, if that's what one can call it, and maybe even kill somebody. The drag created by the flaps in landing configuration must be offset by use of power until the flare, otherwise you're having a bad day. This is true for the real airplane as well as the FS version.Cheers,JohnBoeing 727/737 & Lockheed C-130/L-100 Mechanichttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/ng_driver.jpg

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Well I seemed to have offended Sean and this was not my intention. I made a quick remark without keeping it to this aircraft, oh well not the frist time. I have changed my name tag to reflect my flying status (to which I am not ashamed of) many good folks do not fly but love avaition just the same. I will say that there are a number of pilots on the beta team to cover areas such as these and I put trust in their judgements in regard to this flight model. Yes I am a bit biased but it's a fantastic aeroplane sim. But even so, I know one would not be at ref+5 and full flaps with no power and glide in like a cessna would, well unless you are SWA and are having a very bad day ;-(. As a sim pilot I would venture to assume your speed would bleed off rather quickly in this config and your AOA would increase drastically while trying to maintain ref which raises other serious problems, but I am no expert. In fact I think this type of testing can only be done in a *sim* to tell us how the real one would handle it.[h4]Best Wishes,Randy J. SmithCaution! Not a real pilot, but do play one on TV ;-)http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/betaimg.jpgAMD 64 3200+ | ASUS KV8 DELUXE | GFORCE 5700 ULTRA @535/1000 | Maxtor 6Y080M0 SATA 80 GIG | 512 DDR 400 | Windows Xp Pro | Windows Xp Pro 64 |

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Well this seems like a highly charged little subject so I'll see if my REAL life experience can help.On the 300 (I don't fly the NG) our landing technique at flap 30 is to retard the power levers at around 30ft RA. This is just right to give the proper amount of energy allowing a nice flare and a smooth landing.Flap 40 on the other hand is very different. Having just pulled off my first 'thumper' landing back into leeds at flap 40 we (the capt and I) discussed why it occurred. I had followed the SOP's and retarded at 30ft and then pulled gently to flare. At flap 40 however you are marginally behind the drag curve, this means that removing the residual thrust combined with raising the nose effectively stalls the aircraft and you do 'drop like a rock' A subsequent sector with the same captain landing with flap 40 was much better, I left the retard a little later and brought the power levers back much slower and this seemed to work nicely. IT is fair to say that closing the thrust levers at 200ft will certainly result in a pretty large dent in the runway, you must bear in mind the 50ton weight will decellerate rather quickly and is already quite close to the stall when at Vref+5. Hope that clears things up and I hope no damage has been done between the two arguing parites above.CheersKris

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Sean, are you the same cactuscap who used to post at the Dreamfleet forum? }(

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Hi guys,Most informative Kris, thanks for the excellent info. I havent flown a real 737 yet but I can tell you for sure that the 800/900 has the most realistic landing performance I have ever seen on any aircraft in a sim. I regularly replay the last 120 seconds of the landing just to admire the behaviour, and with the added wing spot views, it really feels like the real thing... top marks!One very small tip Randy, I have been looking at your replies recently and it does appear that sometimes you do jump onto people's questions a bit harshly... some people including myself dont know everything, and sometimes we ask very silly questions! Many thanks in advance.Looking forward to fly in a Ryanair 737-800 next week....... as a passenger !mcbootus

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Well I can be a bit agressive but really do not mean to be (Bad habit that needs a good kick). Sean is correct that I should be more open and not so judemental sounding. It's been a long road to come where I am now and I still have room to learn but am open to change for the better. I am sorry for any offence that I have caused any of you. [h4]Best Wishes,Randy J. SmithCaution! Not a real pilot, but do play one on TV ;-)http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/betaimg.jpgAMD 64 3200+ | ASUS KV8 DELUXE | GFORCE 5700 ULTRA @535/1000 | Maxtor 6Y080M0 SATA 80 GIG | 512 DDR 400 | Windows Xp Pro | Windows Xp Pro 64 |

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mcbootus,You're not the first one noticing Randy's replies which are not always given in a very nice manner. Personally I have made my comments on this before but usually don't bother anymore since no one else seems to care that much about it which I personally think is a bit strange.And no offense intended Randy, just like many others I DO appreciate the great knowledge you so often share with the rest of us regarding this sim but like mcbootus says not everyone are experts but still deserve to be treated in a respectful and nice way even when asking a "stupid" question and I find it far more fun to participate in this kind of forum if you can do that in a friendly manner and leave out any unneccesary and harsh comments.All the best and wishing you all fellow PMDG captains a nice weekend!

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"the aircraft just plummets like a stone."I just have a two questions.... What shape was the stone and what was it doing at the time? It may have been flat and round.... going very fast, spinning and travelling across a flat surface of water ;-) Cheers.Ian.

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Hi Tom!It really depends on your approach. You can pull off a no engine landing with a very soft landing from 5000 ft... BUT if you are on glideslope, on speed and at above 60 ft AGL, I know that the following aircraft will have to spend at least a few months in the hangar: B737, B747. B757 and B767 (the types I have experience with)The question is, what do you do at 200 ft? Do you "duck" to maintain speed and then flare (if you were on the glideslope you'll be hearing some loud alarms) then you can make. You'll just not land in the touchdown zone.Assuming normal landing procedures, you can't kill the thrust at 200 ft AGL. The 747 will be nicer to you than the other aircraft due to its high inertia and high ground effect, but 200 ft is still risky.The 737 is (relatively) a light aircraft, and even at flaps 30 will bleed speed quite fast at low thrust. If you cut the thrust at 200 ft at Vref +5, you'll be stalling a couple of seconds later and if you keep on pulling you'll be sinking with 1300 fpm or more.So, at least in this respect, the PMDG aircraft is realistic.Regards,Mark

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Vassilis,>>Sean, are you the same cactuscap who used to post at the Dreamfleet forum?<

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John,>> First off, you can't compare the gliding characteristics of an airliner in clean configuration at altitude to those of one at flaps 30 and vref+5.<

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