Jump to content

Sign in to follow this  
JSACKS

I still don't get SIDs (STARS are less confusing...)

Recommended Posts

I find that using the FMC inside add-ons such as th PMDG 744 and 73NG series, if I try to set up departures with the SIDs that are ostensibly matched to the departure runways, I am often offered departure tracks that are nonsensical and sometimes in totally the opposite direction to the departure runway heading or even BEHIND the departure runway takeoff roll start point. I just don't understand this: I thought that once you select a runway, the SIDs you are offered in the FMC match your proposed departure track.Can anybody explain why I experience this stuff? Am I doing something wrong? STARs are somewhat less confusing because they do seem to actually match your arrival track to a significant extent.Thanks.Jonathan


Jonathan Sacks

Dell XPS Gen 4, Pentium IV Northwood extreme 3.8Ghz, 3Ghz RAM, eVGA 7900 GTO,

12 GoFlight modules plus MCP-PRO AP and EFIS, GF pedestal, CH rudder pedals,

CH throttle quadrant, 42" LG LED, 24" DELL LCD, Windows XP, FS2004, FSUIPC 3.96

FS Autostart 1.1 (Build 11), FS Navigator 4.6, UT, FE, GE, REX, PMDG, Level-D, PSS, etc.

Share this post


Link to post

Jonathan,maybe you could give us some examples of SIDs which you think do not make sense?In any way it is normal to have a SID going the other direction of your runway heading. Imagine an airport with an east-west runway. Your destination is east of the runway but the wind is blowing from the west. So you have to depart to the west (due to wind) and then somehow find your way to the east of the airport. That's why there are SIDs making 180


Markus Burkhard

 

Share this post


Link to post

Jonathan,What you see when you select a runway are the SIDs that are USABLE off that runway, not necessarily ones that match your flight route. The FMC is not a route planner, you need to know in advance which SID you're going to pick. FSBuild 2 is a good tool for this. If you want real world routes in the US, just go to www.flightaware.com and hit statistics/IFR Route Analysis, it'll show you the most common filed routes between two airports in the US.


Ryan Maziarz
devteam.jpg

For fastest support, please submit a ticket at http://support.precisionmanuals.com

Share this post


Link to post

Well, I am no expert with charts and navigation, but I just painstakingly built a flightplan for the 744 using the PMDG FMC, using output from the online "RouteFinder" service along with FSNavigator from LLBG to KJFK, electing runway 30 for departure. I tried the SIDs in the FMC for runway 30, and none seemed to fit my departure the way I might have hoped. I am puzzled that quite often as far as I can see, SIDs have a weird orientation almost directly after liftoff, sometimes requiring an offset to the left or right (or backwards!) that seems quite inappropriate and just plain strange to me. I understand the matter of wind direction, etc., but I do try to take account of such factors and in this case, I have a strong breeze of 15 knots from 267 degrees so runway 30 makes sense and I would have considered a "straight-out" SID to exist and to make sense for this kind of departure and the subsequent proposed routing.I could cite other examples but after 2+ hours of (definitely interesting and quite pleasurable) routebuilding with airways and the resultant LEGS (about 90 of them), and figuring out where I am and where I am going, I won't do see this evening. But I will try to remember to post more about other specific SIDs in the near future.If you wish, perhaps I could also email you my saved file or FMC flightplan and you could tell me whether you feel it makes sense.Actually, I must also state that on this occasion, I am slightly perplexed as to the route suggested by RouteFinder. It is 270nm longer than the FSNavigator direct-to routing and also is about 700 to 1000nm farther to the north for the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the proposed flight. I am not sure what the RouteFinder dBase is extracted from, but this makes an already pretty long flight about half an hour longer.I appreciate any additional comments, etc. in the meantime. Thanks for posting.Jonathan


Jonathan Sacks

Dell XPS Gen 4, Pentium IV Northwood extreme 3.8Ghz, 3Ghz RAM, eVGA 7900 GTO,

12 GoFlight modules plus MCP-PRO AP and EFIS, GF pedestal, CH rudder pedals,

CH throttle quadrant, 42" LG LED, 24" DELL LCD, Windows XP, FS2004, FSUIPC 3.96

FS Autostart 1.1 (Build 11), FS Navigator 4.6, UT, FE, GE, REX, PMDG, Level-D, PSS, etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Guest D17S

I agree. I can be a big job selecting a good DP (Departure Procedure, AKA "SID") I've used FSbuild too and it will spit out a reasonable DP for the route I want. But the map function just isn't fine enough for me to see what I'm really getting. I have FSNavigator too. It's better for allowing me to intelligently selecting a DP (and a STAR for that matter). In FSnavigator's DP selection window, each DP has a small indicator showing its departure direction. I'll select a runway, then look for a DP that is basically "going my way." STARS have a similar feature.Then there's the real way. The Flight Aware site also has a "Resources" section where you can download an entire "procedures" set of charts in PDF format. http://flightaware.com/resources/There is also the FAA's own site (that is the source for this info) that allows you to down load any U.S. airport's procedure, also in a PDF format. http://www.naco.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=naco/online/d_tppI have actually printed out all the procedures for my area's airports. When I'm messin' around, I'll pull out the actual FAA, DP or STAR chart to decide what DP or STAR I want to use. I'm running low on toner, so I need to get better at just using the PFDs!Now even further into the real world: Airports tend to use some DPs and STARS more than others. So if you really want to play, the suggestion about the Flight Aware route tracking guide seemed a good one. That way you are practicing with DP or STAR that are in actual, normal and frequent use. This is a terrific way to really begin to learn about terminal procedures. What they are. How they work. Then, once you get comfortable with what all this terminal procedure stuff is all about, how about a live flight. . . . yes LIVE. Go to: http://www.liveatc.net/feedindex.php?type=internationalThese are live ATC feeds from real airports. Listen in. If you have done your homework, this chatter will make perfect sense (. . . well, you'll have a general idea anyway). See if they are using one of the STARS you have identified as a normal, frequently used approach procedure for that airport. Can you ID it? Here's a trick.Listen for the STAR's IP (the final approach's Initial Point. Often the controller will say, for instance: "Cleared direct Petis at or above 4200 ft. Cleared to the ILS for runway 26L" where Petis is the STAR's IP. Look over your STARs for an IP called "Petis.") Can you pick out a STAR they are using? Yes? Good. Now fire up MSFS, set up your FMC with that transition, STAR and IP and fly out to that STARS transition (this is the STAR's entry or "on-ramp" waypoint)and pause. Get back on the web site, tune into the airport's arrival frequency and wait. It won't be long before some real airplane announces he's headed in on that STAR. Unpause. Fly the approach right with that airplane as he is being controlled by a real ATC controller in real time. I do this with a real airplane radio at a real airport all the time from my workday cockpit campsites. I can actually watch the airplane I'm following land. I'm generally across the threshold (on my laptop) within 5 seconds of that real airplane.

Share this post


Link to post

Perhaps you could give us the list of SIDs you are wondering about for runway 30? I just looked at a few I downloaded from Vatsim, but I don't know how new or old they are. Most of them have you flying a radial from the BGN VOR and then intercepting a waypoint, some based on a couple heading adjustments from your DME information that BGN transmits.As far as RouteFinder is concerned, it has a tendancy to really give some bad routes, especially long routes over the Ocean. You're better off mapping it out yourself. FlightAware is great, but it's US only.


- Chris Jefferies

 

Asus Maximus VII Hero motherboard | Intel i7 4790k CPU | MSI GTX 970 4 GB video card | Corsair DDR3 2133 32GB SDRAM | Corsair H50 water cooler | Samsung 850 EVO 250GB SSD (2) | EVGA 1000 watt PSU

Share this post


Link to post

Ryan,One step ahead of you, mate! Though it was to be part of a full advanced tutorial flight. Perhaps I should finish the planning part up and release it in it's own right?


Mark Adeane - NZWN
Boeing777_Banner_BetaTeam.jpg

Share this post


Link to post

Against my own sense (!) and determination NOT to use SIDs, because I am just plain incompetent with them, I built a second departure ex LLBG and realized that there IS a SID that extends from the departure runway (rwy 30 in this case), called DEENA 1F; I got the chart off VATSIM for this and printed it out.Anyway, here's the deal so far: I programmed the FMC for rwy 30+ Deena 1F and the very first waypoints are as follows:300 deg track, (535)224 deg track (BGN 254)252 deg track SIX291 deg track BGN 70OK, now, when I then fill in the PERF INIT data, when I get to CRZ ALT and insert my proposed FL, the displayed departure track close to the field in the ND changes shape and becomes less acute. I have no idea why it does this or what's going on.Next, when I program the THR LIMIT page, BGN 254 vanishes from the ND and there is a gap between (535) and the waypoint SIX. However, (BGN 254) remains in the LEGS page--by the way, that waypoint as well as (535) are both surrounded by brackets, ( ), by default in this SID. I don't know whether this gives such waypoints a special status or meaning.I am baffled by this vanishing act (!) with this part of the SID--the rest of it works OK, I think. My workaround so far is to track to BGN15 after liftoff, turning left hdg 211 to BGN25, thence turning hdg 253 to waypoint SIX as this procedure simulates what is in the SID. It is all a rather horrific maneover for me in a heavy (800K) Queen at very low altitude, but I do the best I can.I appreciate any advice on this item, thanks.Oh, by the way, for the arrival at KJFK, I got so befuddled trying to figure out which STAR to use for ILS 31R that I just gave up and manufactured my own STAR using FSNavigator. The good news is that it turns out subsequently that my manufactured STAR is pretty close to the STAR "Plymouth" arrival for runway 31R at KJFK!I really need a school for SIDs and STARs, oi !Jonathan


Jonathan Sacks

Dell XPS Gen 4, Pentium IV Northwood extreme 3.8Ghz, 3Ghz RAM, eVGA 7900 GTO,

12 GoFlight modules plus MCP-PRO AP and EFIS, GF pedestal, CH rudder pedals,

CH throttle quadrant, 42" LG LED, 24" DELL LCD, Windows XP, FS2004, FSUIPC 3.96

FS Autostart 1.1 (Build 11), FS Navigator 4.6, UT, FE, GE, REX, PMDG, Level-D, PSS, etc.

Share this post


Link to post

Well, I figured out some of this mystery. Turns out that if I program D-TO2 and/or CLB-2, the vanishing waypoints re-appear and remain displayed and normal on the ND. The course line is slightly modified to allow for turns, so the distances in the FMC LEGS page change somewhat to allow for leading turns and if it's interesting to see how points are restored depending on the power selected for T/O and climb out. This means that the Queen's FMC can detect whether it is possible to meet steering constraints of a very tight SID. If this is actually so, it is pretty remarkable stuff and I was entirely ignorant of this capability. Jonathan


Jonathan Sacks

Dell XPS Gen 4, Pentium IV Northwood extreme 3.8Ghz, 3Ghz RAM, eVGA 7900 GTO,

12 GoFlight modules plus MCP-PRO AP and EFIS, GF pedestal, CH rudder pedals,

CH throttle quadrant, 42" LG LED, 24" DELL LCD, Windows XP, FS2004, FSUIPC 3.96

FS Autostart 1.1 (Build 11), FS Navigator 4.6, UT, FE, GE, REX, PMDG, Level-D, PSS, etc.

Share this post


Link to post

A little confused on some of what you posted about the flight plan displaying the SID on the ND, but if the SID has you turning to intercept radials, then it'll display an (INTC) on the FMC in the legs page and on the ND as well. When certain items are surrounded by parentheses, they represent conditional waypoints. When you look at the SID/STAR chart, they make perfect sense.That DEENA SID is the one I was looking at last night, and it appeared to have a couple different ways to fly out of runway 30. Don't be so concerned about every little detail, after all it's just a sim, so if you'd rather just fly direct to DEENA, then by all mean do it. A lot of SID and STAR operation is vectored into or out of at any point, so ATC might not follow the exact chart every time.The best way to select a STAR is to choose it based on the direction you're coming from IMO. I program them in before I leave departure, but then again I fly short distances. It wouldn't make sense to fly a STAR that approaches from the opposite direction or one that takes you miles out of the way. Personally, since I use Radar Contact now, I fly the STAR until I get approach ATC, the I request the full IAP in most cases. I can then pick my runway and IAF (initial approach fix) and up-select it to the top of the plan and hit exececute to begin my finals. Otherwise, I have the choice to accept vectors to an ILS or visual when the field is in sight. You'll almost never fly the full STAR. At 30 miles out or so, ATC may begin to give you vectors that stray completely off your STAR/Flight plan, thus you'll rely on HDG mode and maybe even LVL CHG or V/S at some point before finals.Get in the habit of downloading the charts for the airports you're using. It makes understanding and planning the trip much easier. You need to visualize the track. Arbitrarily picking SIDs and STARs is never a good idea.


- Chris Jefferies

 

Asus Maximus VII Hero motherboard | Intel i7 4790k CPU | MSI GTX 970 4 GB video card | Corsair DDR3 2133 32GB SDRAM | Corsair H50 water cooler | Samsung 850 EVO 250GB SSD (2) | EVGA 1000 watt PSU

Share this post


Link to post

Chris:Basically, it seems that if I select a power setting that is too high, certain displayed lines fall out of the SID on the ND and even remove part of the SID right after liftoff. If, however, I elect max reduced TO thrust, like To-2 and CLB 2, then the lines of the SID get restored, as I discovered. It's nifty and something I never knew even existed in the FMC.I had a vague feeling that bracketed wp's meant conditional or some such thing.Yeah, maybe I got too obsessive about this particular SID because it is awkward and kept vanishing (!) I try to be reasonably faithful to flight tracks where I can although this one really challenged my sanity. I also have SimPlates but the default collection on 2 Cd ROMs is quite inadequate and is frustrating even for a novice chart simmer like me--I am great at flying the machine per se, but never used charts much. The lesson is well learned with this affair at ex-LLBG and I shall try to download the right charts and print them going forward.Jonathan


Jonathan Sacks

Dell XPS Gen 4, Pentium IV Northwood extreme 3.8Ghz, 3Ghz RAM, eVGA 7900 GTO,

12 GoFlight modules plus MCP-PRO AP and EFIS, GF pedestal, CH rudder pedals,

CH throttle quadrant, 42" LG LED, 24" DELL LCD, Windows XP, FS2004, FSUIPC 3.96

FS Autostart 1.1 (Build 11), FS Navigator 4.6, UT, FE, GE, REX, PMDG, Level-D, PSS, etc.

Share this post


Link to post

Yeah, I don't get why the display would change just because you didn't derate. I wonder if someone here will read this and tell us whether it's a bug or something.I flew for a long time without charts myself, but eventually decided I wanted to have more information and plan some myself, so I went to the local GA airport store and purchased some High Altitude IFR Enroute maps. Then I went back and started buying the Terminal Procedure charts with SIDs (DPs) and STARs, plus RNAV, VOR, NDB, and ILS approaches. I've spent a lot of money on them, but they make just understanding a route I might pick up from a real-life source easier to visualize. I've never used charts overseas though, but they look more complicated than they need to be. The U.S. charts are very easy to read IMO.


- Chris Jefferies

 

Asus Maximus VII Hero motherboard | Intel i7 4790k CPU | MSI GTX 970 4 GB video card | Corsair DDR3 2133 32GB SDRAM | Corsair H50 water cooler | Samsung 850 EVO 250GB SSD (2) | EVGA 1000 watt PSU

Share this post


Link to post

Be warned that the free access RouteFinder has errors. The first flight I tried was for Gatwick (EGKK) to Edinburgh (EGPH). RouteFinder gave:EGKK SID BIG UT420 WELIN UN57 POL UN601 MARGO STAR EGPH The Biggin SID(BIG) is ONLY for aircraft landing at Heathrow or Northolt. The STAR isn't identified.The UK Standard Route Document uses the Lambourne SID and the TWEED1A STAR so the route should be:EGKK SID LAM L10 BPK (U)N601 MARGO STAR TWEED1A EGPHN601 is for flights up to FL245 and UN601 is for flights above that level.As a result I don't use it any more.


Gerry Howard

Share this post


Link to post

I initially loved RouteFinder because it helped me with programming the Boeing FMC with the VIA/TO functions. I'll continue to use it and compare the routing with FSNav auto-routing. It never idenitifes the applicable SID or STAR but I never minded about that. It's still not a bad deal, considering it's free.Jonathan


Jonathan Sacks

Dell XPS Gen 4, Pentium IV Northwood extreme 3.8Ghz, 3Ghz RAM, eVGA 7900 GTO,

12 GoFlight modules plus MCP-PRO AP and EFIS, GF pedestal, CH rudder pedals,

CH throttle quadrant, 42" LG LED, 24" DELL LCD, Windows XP, FS2004, FSUIPC 3.96

FS Autostart 1.1 (Build 11), FS Navigator 4.6, UT, FE, GE, REX, PMDG, Level-D, PSS, etc.

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
  • Tom Allensworth,
    Founder of AVSIM Online


  • Flight Simulation's Premier Resource!

    AVSIM is a free service to the flight simulation community. AVSIM is staffed completely by volunteers and all funds donated to AVSIM go directly back to supporting the community. Your donation here helps to pay our bandwidth costs, emergency funding, and other general costs that crop up from time to time. Thank you for your support!

    Click here for more information and to see all donations year to date.
  • Donation Goals

    AVSIM's 2020 Fundraising Goal

    Donate to our annual general fundraising goal. This donation keeps our doors open and providing you service 24 x 7 x 365. Your donation here helps to pay our bandwidth costs, emergency funding, and other general costs that crop up from time to time. We reset this goal every new year for the following year's goal.


    2%
    $705.00 of $25,000.00 Donate Now
×
×
  • Create New...