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Planning for no alternate fuel - anyone heard of?

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Hi there allI was wondering if anyone had any knowledge of such a procedure - I haven't ever seen it outside of Australia. Perhaps it is an Australian thing? On a couple of QF flight plans I have seen, there seems to be no planned alternate fuel. This fuel breakdown (for a 737) is as follows (fuel followed by time):FLIGHT 0080 03.02APPROACH 0003 (300kg, for the 767 this is 1000, 747 2000)S/HOLD AT YMML 0004 00.10DIVRSN TO XXXX 0000 00.00S/HOLD AT XXXX 0000 00.00V.F.R. 0008 00.21F.F.R. 0011 00.30CONT 0000 00.00TAXI 0001MIN REQ 0108 04.03PLANNDED ADDIT 0000 00.00FUEL REM TOUCDOWN 0027 01.01It would seem they have 30 minutes holding fuel, 21 minutes "enroute reserve fuel", 10 minutes for a single hold at MEL (perhaps airport-specific?) and 300kg approach fuel (this is Qantas-specific).I imagine not taking alternate fuel would save a lot of fuel - although I suppose they'd have to take it if they were flying to a single-runway destination or if possible bad weather. Although they could always divert enroute. Does anyone know the regulations of this practice at all, or have any experience with it? Also, perhaps too much of a specific question, but are carriers allowed to use their country's regulations on a city-pair that neither orginiates or terminates in their country? RegardsRudy


Rudy Fidao

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Rudy,This is regulation specific but as far as I know you don't need an alternate if the weather is above minima at destination. This weather must be above minima for a specific time window before and after planned arrival time. (FAA 1-2-3 rule?)Hope it helps,


Mats Johansson
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Guest Lenny Zaman

MAts,This is completely correct.JAA and FAA regulations state:JAA: JAR-OPS 1.295:......© An operator must select at least one destination alternate for each IFR flight unless: (1) Both: (i) The duration of the planned flight from take-off to landing does not exceed 6 hours; and (ii) Two separate runways are available (and useable) at the destination and (the appropriate weather reports or forecasts for the destination aerodrome, or any combination thereof, indicate that) for the period from one hour before until one hour after the expected time of arrival at destination, ( the ceiling will be at least 2000ft or circling height + 500ft, whichever is greater, and the visibility will be at least 5km) (2) The destination is isolated and no adequate destination alternate exists.......Cheers

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hello this is too possible in Canadacheck our rules ....725.35 No Alternate Aerodrome - IFR FlightFor an air operator of aeroplanes to qualify to conduct a flight under IFR without designating an alternate aerodrome on the flight plan, the following standard shall be met:(amended 2000/06/01; )(1) Area of Operations(a) for flights not more than six hours of scheduled flight time from the aerodrome of intended landing, the following requirements shall be met:(amended 2006/06/30; )(i) the take-off aerodrome shall be situated within the North American continent, the Caribbean islands or Bermuda;(amended 2006/06/30; )(ii) the aerodromes of intended landing authorized for these "No Alternate IFR" flights shall meet the requirements of subsection (3) below; and(amended 2006/06/30; )(iii) provided the requirements of subsections (2), (3), (4), (5) and (6) are met, the pilot-in-command may re-file "No Alternate IFR" on flights to a destination aerodrome in Canada, regardless of the location of the departure aerodrome, when within six hours of the scheduled destination aerodrome.(amended 2006/06/30; )(:( for flights with more than six hours but not more than eight hours of scheduled flight time from the aerodrome of intended landing, the following requirements shall be met:(amended 2006/06/30; no previous version)(i) the take-off aerodrome shall be situated within the North American continent;(ii) the aerodrome of intended landing shall be situated within the North American continent except Mexico;(iii) the aerodrome of intended landing shall be pre-approved by Transport Canada and listed in the air operator

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A number of years ago I flew for a regional airline in western canada and we had approval for no-alt ifr. Conditions for it's use weatherwise were pretty specific. Occasional use was made of it when needed due to a full load when weather co-operated. You really wanted to know your weather and geographic area you are operating in as forcasts can be out to lunch at times. It is a useful tool. Dave

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yes that s true too i indicated only some infos ... not all canadian regulations ...!!!last words is given too from approval from transport canada minister and of course as in USA the dispatchs (even not flying) share responsabilities ..!!!and for weather pretty sure that canadian dispatch are not too bad in the job lol ???!!! but forecast is forecast sometimes real weather is worst ... some know these facts ...!!>A number of years ago I flew for a regional airline in>western canada and we had approval for no-alt ifr. Conditions>for it's use weatherwise were pretty specific. Occasional use>was made of it when needed due to a full load when weather>co-operated. You really wanted to know your weather and>geographic area you are operating in as forcasts can be out to>lunch at times. It is a useful tool. Dave

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Thanks for the replies guys! It is evident it is not just in Australia this possible - perhaps it is simply more common. I don't think the under six hour rule applies here, as a flight plan from Sydney-Singapore I have seen (8-9 hours) seems to not have any alternate fuel either.Interesting reading - thanks a lot for all the replies!RegardsRudy


Rudy Fidao

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hello Rudy,maybe your specific flight was ruled under ISLAND reserve that mean instead of altn and hold reserve you have only 120 min fuel of reserve but just in certains cases ???!!!i dont have the ICAO rules and recommendations for this but already seen some plans with that for some destinations !???!!see you >Thanks for the replies guys! It is evident it is not just in>Australia this possible - perhaps it is simply more common. I>don't think the under six hour rule applies here, as a flight>plan from Sydney-Singapore I have seen (8-9 hours) seems to>not have any alternate fuel either.>>Interesting reading - thanks a lot for all the replies!>>Regards>Rudy

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