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Special Terminal Procedure question - I need help pls

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Guest NAVData

Hi gents,now i need help from the sid-star profis here. As you possible know, i make ready the first set of the worldwide terminal procedures for PMDG.The exporter is ready and i

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I'm getting lost after intercepting the radial.. does the BUBr224 lead you direct to CIV? May it should be TRK 277 UNTIL RADIAL 224 FROM NAVAID BUB NAVAID CIV. Using UNTIL instead of INTERCEPT... maybe.


Dan Downs KCRP

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Richard,I think I see the error now:Does this SID have you actually flying to BUB before going on to CIV?If so it should beSID CIV4HRNW 07L TRK 066 UNTIL 1700 HDG 277 INTERCEPT RADIAL 224 FROM NAVAID BUB NAVAID BUB NAVAID CIVSo basically that's two separate commands:INTERCEPT RADIAL 224 FROM NAVAID BUB - gets you on that radialINTERCEPT RADIAL 224 FROM NAVAID BUB - tells it to go to the stationAlso - most of the SID/STAR makers define FIXes for everything and then use the FIX command instead of NAVAID. This way, the SID/STAR file always works regardless of the AIRAC installed. I guess that's not an issue here since this package will come with the current AIRAC, but wanted to make sure you knew that was an option too - actually defining everything used in the file with LAT/LON at the start of the file.


Ryan Maziarz
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Ryan, did you mean:So basically that's two separate commands:INTERCEPT RADIAL 224 FROM NAVAID BUB - gets you on that radialNAVAID BUB - tells it to go to the station


Dan Downs KCRP

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Guest NAVData

>Rich,>>This happens both in the 744 and NG?Hi Ryan,only tried with the NG ... are there internal differences between the 747 and the NG FMCs?Rich

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Guest NAVData

Hi again Ryan,first of all thanks to you and Don to try to help me ... >I think I see the error now:>>Does this SID have you actually flying to BUB before going on>to CIV?No, as you see in the picture of the first post BUB is above the route which you are flying - BUB is only for a reference navaid for the intercept.The legs are:FA heading 66 until 1700ftVI left turn to heading 277 intercept R-224 BUBCF to CIVI have uploaded the original chart of the SIDs for EBBR 07L, I believe thats a little bit clearer.http://www.navdata.at/temp_charts/ebbr_sid07l.pdf(chart came from EAD and is copyright by the EAD)>Also - most of the SID/STAR makers define FIXes for everything>and then use the FIX command instead of NAVAID. This way, the>SID/STAR file always works regardless of the AIRAC installed. >I guess that's not an issue here since this package will come>with the current AIRAC, but wanted to make sure you knew that>was an option too - actually defining everything used in the>file with LAT/LON at the start of the file.Yes, i know but in normal case, all waypoints are in the AIRAC files - therefor i don

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Richard,Are you sure that's right? Looking at that chart, I don't see how it can be BUB R-224 to get to CIV. To me it looks like it should be something more like:Fly heading 66 until 1700Turn left heading 277Intercept CIV R-044 inbound to CIV


Ryan Maziarz
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Hi StefanIt seems to me that the right procedure should be like this:SID CIV4H RNW 07L TRK 066 UNTIL 1700 HDG 277 INTERCEPT RADIAL 224 FROM NAVAID CIV ( Not BUB)And then pass on to the route You wish.Best RegardsSten Kristensen

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I just tried this now in the sim and turning to 277 after passing 1700 takes you away from the BUB R-224, not toward it, it's nowhere close to being an intercept heading - if that's really what the data tells you to do then I think it's gotta be wrong.Here's a pic of the ND with the BUB R-224 and the CIV R-044 shown on the FIX page, I've just completed the left turn to 277. There's no possible way to get to BUB R-224 on that heading. The chart really looks like you're supposed to intercept CIV R-044 to me.http://www.progressivetranscriptions.com/civ4h.jpg


Ryan Maziarz
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SID CIV4H RNW 07L TRK 066 UNTIL 1700 HDG 277 INTERCEPT RADIAL 224 TO NAVAID CIV NAVAID CIVThis works in both the 744 and the NG - I just tried it. The only issue is that the magenta line doesn't look quite right, which I will ask the coders about. The planes do fly the SID correctly though regardless of what the magenta shows.There is a difference between the NG and the 744 with respect to very closely spaced waypoints that have a tight turn between them. The NG will give a message that says "DISCO INSERTED AFTER XXXXX" in this case - the 744 will handle it correctly.There's nothing we can do about that if you run into it, so I would use the 744 for your testing - if it works with the 744, we're good.


Ryan Maziarz
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Hi, the official Jeppesen description from 1. APR 05 is as follows:CIV3H 07L: Climb straight ahead at 1700' turn LEFT, 278


Jan-Paul Schuchna

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Yep, which is functionally equivalent to what I just posted - 044 is just the reciprocal course of 244.So eitherINTERCEPT RADIAL 224 TO NAVAID CIVorINTERCEPT RADIAL 044 FROM NAVAID CIVwill work.


Ryan Maziarz
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Hi RichardI have tested CIV4H at EBBR. and it must be something wrong in the source data here. When heading 277 (after reaching 1700ft) there's no way you can intercept the BUB 224 radial, that's a complete different direction. So I assume it must be intercepting radial 224 from CIV. Then the string will be something like this according to the chart:SID CIV4H RNW 07L TRK 066 UNTIL 1700 TRK 277 INTERCEPT RADIAL 044 FROM NAVAID CIV NAVAID CIVorSID CIV4H RNW 07L TRK 066 UNTIL 1700 TRK 277 INTERCEPT RADIAL 244 TO NAVAID CIV NAVAID CIVEDIT: I see that many others came to the same conclusion below, didn't update the browser after testing/posting

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