...we'd have to shoot it. :-bangPlease let this thread die a natural death and be burried in the depths of the forum.

OOPS on the comparison to the bank limiter! Mike, The simple reason is that most of you guys are the best at least the ones I know who have been around for a while! You know what a good product is all about and can say respectfully if something has issues (like Tero) without the name calling like some are prone to due. I value your guys honest opinions. When I said PIC is great because it's flight dynamics is not to say the FMC etc aren't just as well done, just trying to make the point that IF they wern't so good the rest of the plane would not matter. I* have not removed PIC from my hard drive and still fly it and will buy Version 2 if it is released. People expect perfection out the door and it is there right, in this case it did not go very well but not to give them a chance because of that reason is not cool and I am tried of talking to some of these fellas who only desire is to stir up as much crap as possible. People talk about PIC all the time on PMDG's forum, it's not censored but they will stop the "my sim Vs. your sim" discussion for this very reason. [h5]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smith [h4]P M D G 7 3 7 NG[/h4]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/196432/mineimage.jpg [h3] Realism on the horizon [h5]AMD XP 2200 |MUNCHKIN 512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ][i] K7S5A MB[/i] |GF2 MX 32 MEG and still runs GOOD!|WIN XP PRO |MITSUBISHI DIAMOND PLUS 91 19"[/h5]

I do not feel we are being wrong in comparing the two products. I have had PIC around since it was FREEWARE and then further when it became PAYWARE and on into FS2002. I purchased PMDG B737 because they had a good track record in the FLY arena. I am hesitant to recommend the B737 due to the state in which it was released.I do not want to compare a B767 and a B737...but I do remember loading up PIC reading the manual doing tutorials and taking off on my first flight. It was a dream come true. I originally purchased the PMDG product for FS2002, and right from the start there were many problems and even after the patch there continues to be problems. I have faith that they will be ironed out and I will not throw the baby out with the bath water.In my mind it is hard to beat PIC767 panel mated to a POSKY B767. Just to beautiful for words. I hope that PMDG gets close. Because it too has the potential that PIC achieved. The bar is very high! We can say that PIC put it there.I would like to hear comments on the changes in COF to the aerodynamic modelling. There were some threads regarding the unavailablity of certain parameters that were going to cripple the ADDON market as far as realistic flight models. Just think if this is true...we can extrapolate that PIC767 maybe the best that ever was as far as the FS goes. Just think it may never be surpassed ... sad ... but a plausible reality if the aerodynamics problem is true and insurmountable by folks that jiggle the airfiles.Tony

> People expect perfection out the door and it is there right,>in this case it did not go very well but not to give them a>chance because of that reason is not cool and I am tried of>talking to some of these fellas who only desire is to stir up>as much crap as possible. Well obviously we customers don

Hey Murf,This reminds me of a great movie classic, "Cool Hand Luke"Remember these lines,"What we got here is a failure to communicate""Some men you just can't reach"or another great classicRebel Without a Cause!!!!!ED

Randy"People expect perfection out the door and it is there right, in this case it did not go very well but not to give them a chance because of that reason is not cool and I am tried of talking to some of these fellas who only desire is to stir up as much crap as possible."Just who do you think you are?You are a betatester on a terrible product and you think that your opinion means more than others?No one expects perfection but for you to come here and say with a straight face that the NG is even close is ridiculous.You should change your signiture to an apology to the whole community for the crap that PMDG has foisted on us.Now quite frankly your lousy attitude is irritating me to no end so as with PMDG you are out of chances.Six+ weeks of reading your BS is enough.And you tell PMDG from me that I hope they choke on that 40.Ted

"What we got here is a failure to communicate""Some men you just can't reach"You can blow this thread off as a embarrasment or as selfish ignorant intolorance or whatever. But to me its apparent that a much broader consensus has and continues to form an opinion of these two contrasting products. If I were you I would pay attention to what has happened in this tread becaues in my opinion it has greater significance that what appears at the surface. This has been a very mature outcry of paying customers not children.This may not be the shot heard round the would but it does have some significance and I am proud to be a part of itDennis Waggoner

>Randy,>>PIC's bank limiter operates just fine :). You're correct that>ALT HOLD should seek the altitude the button was pressed at,>unlike HDG HOLD which is supposed to roll out on a heading,>not the one when pressed. [snip]>>Tero>Actually, Tero, I think you're incorrect there. I believe in the real world the ALT HOLD button will hold altitude if you're in level flight, but will hold the altitude after level off if you're in a climb or descent.Some 757/767 pilots use a "double tap" method with ALT HOLD. If they're descending and want to level off at 12000, they'll hit ALT HOLD the first time at 12500; then as the plane levels off, they'll hit it again around 12000.Jon (KSEA)

As a side note, I think this is a perfect reason why we have a forum, any forum for that matter. I've actually learned quite a bit about the PIC 767 and the PMDG 737, without this "argument", many issues wouldn't be coming to light.I for one enjoy and encourage this kind of discussion (as long as it remains civil, of course!)

Dennis,I was refering to a certain individual poster, not the thread.Long Live B767 PIC.......it doesn't get any better than this!ED

(Edited to fix horeebull speeellling misteaks)Ed,Great lines indeed!Remember this one... ."I'm mad as h&ll and I'm not going to take it anymore" ...also applicable to my feelings on this thread.(DS please feel free to add some more movie/tv quotes)Dennis,What can I say but WOW!! I didn't realize I was involved in such a significant event. At least I'll have something to tell my grandkids about now. (Hey kids remember the great PMDG vs PIC debate of '03? Your old grandpa was part of that...)All joking aside I don't see people complaining about PIC in the PMDG or PSS forum. Nor have I seen people who purchased the Captain Sim 727 in here complaining about it. If people feel they have gripes about the PMDG 737 I would think the PMDG forum would be the place to vent these frustrations. There may be people in that forum who care!As I said in my previous post... please let us let this thread die, it doesn't belong in this forum. And before I get tagged as "forum cop" let me say that it should not take a "forum cop" to realize this thread does not belong here.

All joking aside I don't see people complaining about PIC in the PMDG or PSS forum. Nor have I seen people who purchased the Captain Sim 727 in here complaining about it. If people feel they have gripes about the PMDG 737 I would think the PMDG forum would be the place to vent these frustrations.None of these "vents" as you call them would ever see the light of day on that forum. They would be deleted before you could hit the enter key.Dennis Waggoner

"None of these "vents" as you call them would ever see the light of day on that forum. They would be deleted before you could hit the enter key."Dennis,That may well be true. But the point I was trying to make is that this is the "PIC767" forum not the "Posts The Would Be Deleted On Other Forums" forum. Perhaps the General Forum would be a better place to post these issues? You'd reach a larger reading audience and the moderators of that forum seem to be very tolerant of people posting their opinions on products, both good and bad.While I can understand why a person can be frustrated when they purchase something that does not meet their expectations, I just don't think the PIC forum should be used to air these frustrations.Here in Camelot we eat ham and jam and spam a lot.- Monty Python and the Holy Grail

"the moderators of that forum seem to be very tolerant of people posting their opinions on products, both good and bad."I think we need to be here as well.One thing we need to remember, PMDG has a customer support forum. Kudos for them. This here is the support forum for PIC767, and should include gripes, complaints, excitement, and comparisons. Come on guys, this forum really has made PIC better. As far as customer support for PIC, can we say non-existent?

Hmmmmm.....I think I've been misunderstood. I was not trying to say negative/positive comments about PIC767 should be taken elsewhere.You want to bash PIC? This is the place!Praise PIC? This is the place!Get help on using PIC? Again... this is the place.My point was...You want to bash/praise/get support for a product other than PIC? Then there are other forums more applicable to these needs.The Pro-PMDG crowd and the Anti-PMDG crowd have used this forum as somewhat of a battlefield.I purchased the PMDG 737 and I happily use the PMDG forum to post my problems/praises.Perhaps Avsim could simplify things and just have one big forum where everyone can post anything they want about any topic rather than have all these smaller topic specific forums?