The PMDG 737 will NEVER be the Simulator that Pic767 Still is. I knew that the first time I loaded it. PMDG simply does not have the time, resources or capability to make it such. PIC767 is a once in a lifetime addon. I saw another company about three years ago release a boeing product advertising a full fledged FMC. After two or three months of clammer on their forum and a few patches all they could do was start deleting threads and lock down the forum. Funny thing is they never did get VNAV implimented correctly either.Again a company has got to know their limitations Dennis Waggoner

Tero, i agree except for the part about "I SUSPECT that there will be a new PICv2 out, that is relatively bug free, BEFORE PMDG even gets the 600/700 sorted, much less get the 800/900 done and sorted."i don't think PIC will have a bugfree version out sooner than PMDG cleaning up their 737-600/700. remember PIC767 v1 was crammed with bugs aswell, we simply can't expect devellopers to simulate every type of system existing, otherwise it would be stupid to ask money for the product if you were to use a beta team that broad to accomodate all sorts of systems... now what i'm saying mostly applies to incompatibility issues and not to lacking functionality but remember that PIC doesn't have all functionality possible either and that is related to the time of production...We all in some way beta tested PIC767 in it's early stages after release...I do fly the plane often because i simply like the plane and okay it may not have every tiny bit in it yet but that will come...(and refering to flight dynamics(mostly fuel cons, speeds...) it is SPOT on in Flightsim standards.(fs standards because FS simply CANNOT simulate anything closely to the real thing... all is relative, so is the functionality.I suggest we give it a bit of time, it's been 2 months(or 3?) after the release...(release being under serious peer pressure and imho too soon aswell, PIC was smart enough to start announcing their product when it was as good as complete)Greetz

Lenny"PIC767 v1 was crammed with bugs aswell"I have owned PIC from the beginning and the above quote has got to be the biggest load of hooey I have ever read.You may be able to blow this tripe past the newest PIC guys but it ain`t going to flush with me or the other old hands that have used PIC prepatch.It`s funny what some folks will say to rationalise what is just a plain mess (NG)Ted

>remember PIC767 v1 was crammed with bugs aswell,>We all in some way beta tested PIC767 in it's early stages>after release...That is SIMPLY NOT TRUE!!! PIC 767 was the ONE flightsim-add-on that had NO major bugs on release. I know, because I even used Eric Ernst

VortexI just looked for the original patch file and found it on Wilco.It came to a whopping 1.9mb.Now compare that to NG`s 18.9mb su1 and there is still so much to fix.Just for the heck of I tried to install it to an empty directory to view the readme but it failed without a valid path to 2000.I hate it when people with their own agendas try to spin and misrepresent the facts as this is one of the worst things you can do on a forum as some folks base the decision to buy by what they read here.Also they waste our time as we have to refute them.Ted

>I just looked for the original patch file and found it on>Wilco.>It came to a whopping 1.9mb.Now compare that to NG`s 18.9mb>su1 and there is still so much to fix.Well, things are almost WORSE after installing the PMDG-patch :-(I can say this, because I am the idiot who bought the PMDG 737 as soon as it was released and didn

Well,In my humble opinion I still think that these 2 products are not easy to compare. Comparing 2 products that were concieved at different times under different conditions is not all that simple. Expectancies from the flightsim world have changed since the initial release of PIC and any new product is bound to be plagued initially, with bugs as the authors try and fullfill all their customer wishes that have grown crescendo over the years. I do believe that if you want to draw a comparaison then you have do do it with similar products...i.e comparing a 767 product with another 767 simulation.In this case the authors have set the standard so high that no one else could or dared do anything similar as it most probably could not stand the comparaison. That speaks volumes for this add-on ! I enjoy the 767 and it is by far (and I emphasise by far)my favorite simulation but i will not close the door to other aircraft simulation products that most probably will end up being excellent add-ons. To do so would be akin closing the door to the future...As for being a 40 buck beta tester well i can appreciate the argument and the frustration. However I try and put things in context : when i take a real plane for a flight, I end up paying quite a bit of money and I enjoy it ! I can't afford to take a 767 or a 737NG for a spin so I settle for a simulation. So I try to settle for second best ! So if I want to "fly" a 767 I go for PIC and if I want a 737NG I'll take the PMDG product because in that category it's still a good product...and is likely to get better !! Ok that's my 2 for the moment ...mind you I wouldn't be against comparing the current version of PIC767 with any future release of the same authors...nor would many others...no doubt.Happy landings and don't bust your rib cage with hilarity...Cheers,

Ted, Let me set you straight on this one point sir, The REASON the patch was a *WHOPPING* size is because they had CHANGED the bitmaps (all of them) to a SMALLER SIZE to make loading times quicker for those users who had memory issues. It's pointless in bringing up what bugs PIC had. Some of you seem to CONFUSE what is not currently included (simulated in the NG) with *BUGS*. If that is the case this PIC is full of these itself. Do any of you guys know a 767 that does not have a BANK limiter? Or when you hit the ALT HLD button the aircraft does NOT level off where you PUSHED the button? Now are those SERIOUS BUGS or what? I would not call them bugs but by your same standards of judging the NG they are. PIC is great for ONE REASON ALONE, it's flight dynamics cause it's exterior model is in no way good even back at release but we who know a good aircraft did not care too much about such things, remember? The PIC community is not large, it's comprised of the hard core crowd who by the way make up the smallest precentage of flight simulator users. You want to lump all issues into one cart and argue with that. I say if you don't want to give the NG a chance then don't, maybe developers will not want to bother unless they are WELP seeing that NO ONE is able to make any aircraft without the some tearing down their honest attempts. [h5]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smith [h4]P M D G 7 3 7 NG[/h4]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/196432/mineimage.jpg [h3] Realism on the horizon [h5]AMD XP 2200 |MUNCHKIN 512 DDR RAM |ECS[/b ][i] K7S5A MB[/i] |GF2 MX 32 MEG and still runs GOOD!|WIN XP PRO |MITSUBISHI DIAMOND PLUS 91 19"[/h5]

>and any new product is bound>to be plagued initially, with bugs as the authors try and>fullfill all their customer wishes that have grown crescendo>over the years. This is simply not true that "any new product is bound to be plagued ..". I even find this statemnt on a bizarre side...Flight1's Meridian is extremely complex add-on using all sort of state-of-the-art display technologies, panels, etc and it has NOT been plagued .... There has been many other complex aircraft add-ons released recently that disprove your point.Michael J.

Randy, you need another example. PIC's bank limiter works perfectly fine. Have you not found the clickspots for it? I just did a nice 5* bank turn in HDG SEL mode.Lee Hetherington (KBED)

Randy,With all due respect (and I owe you plenty of it), you are seriously falling on your sword. Just let this argument go and get down to your work to help make the NG the add-on that it has the potential to be.And I know you don

Michael J. in my defence...The reason for me to not completely disqualify PMDG's product, is because I know it is not a finished product, and maybe that is something that would mean that some are not interested in the product, then so be it, I know that when they are finished with all the last patch work, this baby WILL retire the PIC, I know it because it feels like quality...When something feels, looks and sounds good, it is bound to be good, what's contradictory about that???It has just been frustrating not being able to fly the mother 100%, and I am itching to take it out for a spin...So that is what I right now find the most irritating about the product, but I have the full confidence that PMDG will polish and patch the product, till it rivals PIC 200%, and they sure are heading that way...So I just wanted to avoid criticizing PMDG too much, because I know they are working so hard to finish off this bird...So Michael J. you now understand why I wrote like I did?And also, please stick to the subject instead of commenting in a negative tone k? :)Boaz...

Randy,PIC's bank limiter operates just fine :). You're correct that ALT HOLD should seek the altitude the button was pressed at, unlike HDG HOLD which is supposed to roll out on a heading, not the one when pressed. A minor bug. But PMDG's bugs are a bit more extensive though.I trust you when you say that things will be looked at, and not one stone will be left unturned. We'll see what the outcome will be...Tero

RandyI invite you to reread this thread.http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...15065&mode=full" maybe developers will not want to bother unless they are WELP seeing that NO ONE is able to make any aircraft without the some tearing down their honest attempts."If you consider the original release as well as the first patch to be honest attempts then I feel sorry for the whole community and the quality of the FSaddons that they are going to be offered in the future.As far as giving it a chance I`ve been forced to now have`nt I?For six+ weeks I`ve held my tounge but enough is enough and am tired of the excuses and developer hardware falures and PMDG vacations that have always been used to excuse themselves from accountability.In the end it`s my money and I have every right to complain about these things as they are not right and you know it.The funny thing is that at no time were these kinds of issues on the PIC forum and that is saying something in it`s self is`nt it?At this point I don`t trust anything that PMDG says and will believe it when I see it since there is a no refund policy so I`ll just have to deal with now won`t I?In fact I guess that would be the ultimate comparison.I never even considered a refund from PIC and it would have been easy too.Ted

>In my humble opinion I still think that these 2 products are>not easy to compare. Comparing 2 products that were concieved>at different times under different conditions is not all that>simple. This is really "a shot in your own foot" ;-)If "comparing products conceived at different times under different conditions is not simple" wouldn