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MarkW

VATSIM and IVAO

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I think we would all agree that in most enterprises competition is a good thing. Having said that I think online flying is perhaps one area where competition adds little value. This is such a small and specialized market where everyone agrees that more aircraft and more ATC is a good thing and yet we have VATSIM and IVAO sharing a small group of users and offering essentially the same service.Does anyone know the history here and if efforts are underway to join the two groups. Perhaps VATSIM can control NA, SA, Africa and Asia while IVAO controls Europe.Mark.

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>Does anyone know the history here and if efforts are underway to >join the two groups. >Perhaps VATSIM can control NA, SA, Africa and >Asia while IVAO controls Europe.What you suggest probably won't happen anytime soon. Your right though Europe is probably the key merging area, as that's IVAO's mainstay.Its doubtfull VATSIM Europe would ever give control of its division to IVAO's Europe group.I think the only possible merger is bringing the smaller IVAO into the larger VATSIM.Not likely anytime soon.Regards.Ernie.

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Thatd be the end of my use of VATSIM thats for sure. IVAO is no where near the quality of VATSIM, they never will be. VATSIM Europe is able to provide more controllers, and more pilots than IVAO can do for the region, why even suggest such a merger?

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I for one am really tired of the artificial rivalries which creep up in this hobby. We are all in it for the fun of simming and the friendships we develop in the virtual online community. As for why a merger would be good for the hobby, for one thing it would create a larger body of simmers under one umbrella. Whenever I check ivao, there is hardly anyone on line...but, when I check vatsim, things can be quite busy with a large base of controllers. I say, let's all get together and have a better simming experience with more controllers and more flyers.Sherm

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Its not that hard . . . if they want to use VATSIM, sign up for it. But I dont see a merger working, sorry.

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If the only thing preventing a merger is "quality" then that seems like an easy thing to fix. Between VATSIM and IVAO there are 60,000 registered users, I would guess that 10,000 are overlaps so that leaves 50,000. During the peak use time (evenings and weekends) we have only 300 to 400 pilots and 100 ATC split between the two networks (<1% of users), why not join forces to increase the number of active users, improve the overall quality and pool resources for improvements (like an improved voice program).Mark.

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>Thatd be the end of my use of VATSIM thats for sure. IVAO >is no where near the quality of VATSIM, they never will be. >VATSIM Europe is able to provide more controllers, and more >pilots than IVAO can do for the region, why even suggest >such a merger? Hmm, quality, where? Is it a quality when 50% of users fly with B744 on route EGLL-RJAA, the plan says "DIRECT GPS". Yep yep, the realism. But where? Please, first make sure that we are realistic now in VATSIM, then invite some more users and make them realistic too..My route from GCTS to EFHK last sunday: BIMBO UZ9 ORSOS UN866 AGADO/N0465F360 UN866 KORUL UL722 BHD UA25 NITON UY98 BARTN/N0461F370 UL975 DANDI UN866 AAL UN607 BAK UN873 LAKUT DCT

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Thanks for the laugh, but you really have no clue what your talking about.

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Perhaps you need to learn the history of IVAO, and why it was created in the first place.

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>Thanks for the laugh, but you really have no clue what your >talking about. Hmm, do I have a clue? Yes, I think so. Let's see if you got me right. I mean that there is a huge amount of "gamers" in VATSIM. I use the word "gamers" because VATSIM is developed for simulating air traffic and controlling of it. There are some people who just want to fly with their GPS gauge and B744 direct flights from KORD to EHAM, for example. And there are people who don't know the things. I've seen a few guys who couldn't speak english, too. Please tell me, is this realistic?The problem is the biggest at large busy airports like Heathrow and Schiphol, but I have seen the problem on my own eyes in Helsinki as controller. The situation is: Only one controller is online at large airport, let's say he/she works as approach controller. A few minutes it's very quiet. Suddenly, the controller has 5-10 arrivals on vectors and 5 departures. Arrivals do it fine but there is one departing guy for flight EFHK-UHZA, route is "DIRECT GPS". Then the controller thinks where the hell is UHZA. He checks Whazzup, Whazzup doesn't recognize the code. He asks the pilot, pilot doesn't understand due his not-so-good english. What next? "Oops, others are waiting there." And more pilots to come. The controller cannot give just the direct clearance and he cannot give the vectors because he doesn't know where the pilot is going to. The only way is to separate by altitude. And believe me, I see very often a common mistake, pilot passes the clearance altitude. On heavy traffic, this means crash.Now I've told why VATSIM is not so realistic. Do I know what I'm talking about? No direct plans, no unrealistic aircraft types (in real life you'll try Cessna first, not B747), good english and phraseology. Then it will be more realistic.If you have knowledge, give it to the others too.To convince you, here's my VATSIM stats. I really have experience in this case.Pilot 25/08/2001 685:22:15 Observer 13/06/2002 0:00:06 Student 21/09/2001 216:15:06 Senior Student 17/01/2002 321:39:42 Controller 01/10/2002 36:49:35 P.S. In Finland we have a very high quality ATC training, I've even tried a real ATC simulator in Finnish Civil Aviation Administration ATC training center, Avia College.P.P.S. I think my english is not so good as well, but I think you can manage it. :)EDIT: I noticed the negative view on my post when I read it, so it's time to fix it a little. I didn't say the new ones are not welcome. I also didn't say that VATSIM is not realistic. VATSIM is realistic at some parts of it all. But it would not be any more realistic after a year if we do not do something for it. I would be glad to teach the new ones and others who are not so good on navigation and phraseology. And I've done this already in Finland for a few new pilots who had asked for my help. I think that VATSIM is not the right place for people who just want to get up to the skies without any realistic feeling. But I hope that the most of VATSIM users want realistic feel. Together we can make VATSIM a better place to fly. And to control, of course. ;) And please, visit at me in Finland sometimes, you're more than welcome. :)Just thinking if we got Eurocat 2000 radar systems simulation available for controllers as Pro Controller now (actually, what system is simulated in PC?). More realistic, you know..

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Once again, Id like to refer you to Richard Critz, VP of Pilot Training for VATSIM. There will never be anything us controllers can do to help pilots learn, UNLESS they already have a background of the air traffic system. And I will agree with you, many do not. But I would not be so naive to say 50% are newbies, and want to fly RJAA - EGCC in a B744, w/ dir. GPS in as there flight plan. There are many pilots, who are real, student, or hobbiest pilots who fly on VATSIM as realistic as the simulation allows. Im one of them, and I know there are many more here that may decide to chime in on there defense. Ive been w/ VATSIM (aka SATCO) for well over 2-3yrs. I recall the days of not having an idea of what the system was like. Lucky me I have a father who is a real world pilot (US). So I learned promptly, and now Im going into the real world air traffic management career field. You are correct, the true users of VATSIM do act realisticly, and its much more than 50%. So that just dash's out your assumption of 50% want to fly a B744 gps dir from RJAA-EGCC. As for the ProController system, it isnt realistic for one, and as soon as ASRC is released (oh BTW - It will have a Eurocat 200 system implemented [v.2]) the aspect of realism will increase 100 fold for us controllers. If you feel like looking up my information, here is my CID 811983Enjoy what you see. . .Regards

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>Once again, Id like to refer you to Richard Critz, VP of >Pilot Training for VATSIM. There will never be anything us >controllers can do to help pilots learn, UNLESS they already >have a background of the air traffic system. And I will >agree with you, many do not. But I would not be so naive to >say 50% are newbies, and want to fly RJAA - EGCC in a B744, >w/ dir. GPS in as there flight plan. You're right, there are maybe 5% or even less. But from my point of view, there must be more pilot training action. In Finland, we've started VFR training flights for new pilots, helped by real PPL and CPL pilot and real air traffic controller. I think that soon we'll start IFR training. We have also Virtual Finnair. It's VA where the pilots have to learn things first as in real life too. I don't know if there is action anywhere else, please tell me. :)>As for the ProController system, it isnt realistic for one, >and as soon as ASRC is released (oh BTW - It will have a >Eurocat 200 system implemented [v.2]) the aspect of realism >will increase 100 fold for us controllers. Great! Finally some realism for controllers too. :)Regards

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I'll back Josh on this one.Also, my view of IVAO. I've flown on IVAO three times just to see what it was like compared to VATSIM. I was so disapointed with the quality of the in England, France, and Germany. I flew from London City to Frankfurt in a Boeing 737-400. I had every Airport/Taxiway Diagram, IAP, STAR, SID I needed, and was also running FSnav4. It's not totally professional, but it would get the job done. I flew the same flight a few days later on VATSIM, the ATC was much much better. Anyways, my credentials are a Senior Student with VATSIM's BEST ARTCC, and a couple hundred hours of IFR flying on VATSIM. My real world credentials are about 7 hours in the Citabria, 2 in the Cessna 172, and 10 in the Cessna 150/152s. I'm also an EAA member(1997), and an AOPA member(2002).Paul MeyerMorris,IL C09Cessna 150, 172Bellanca Citabria

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>I don't know if there is action anywhere else, please tell me. Speedbird Online, the VATSIM division of BA Virtual, is also running a program for new pilots, both in groups as well as one on one sessions.I still recall my first flight on VATSIM: Shanghai-Heathrow in an A340 - complete with a flightplan created in FSNav3 :-hah

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>exclusive, by the >way). The goal of both organisations is to >organize more pilots and more ATC, yet they don

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Guys,for the last time please stop spreading this false tale about IVAO having more users in europe. This is simply not true.First, remember it was VATSIM Europe that broke the all-time-network record lately with more than 750 concurrent onnections on the network. This happened during VATSIM Europe

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Bottom line is IVAO will NEVER be as successful as VATSIM. . .End of discussion.

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Well said Martin ;) People tend to forget VATSIM Europe Region is a VATSIM Region, which encompasses three Divisions. One of them, VATSIM Europe Division includes 24 vACCs which in many areas conform to same standards and strongly communicate between them. They are under a joint (simulated) aviation administration which greatly enhances their operation in relation to real operations.Europe's is a prime example of this communication and common administration body in operation.Stay in touch it's coming back early in 2003 !We certainly respect IVAO and its operations but we are also aware that there are huge differences in what users get from each network.Its a very healthy situation the way I see it.Two Greek words which I don't know how often are used in English :Antagonism has always harmed, Synagonism never has ...Kyprianos Biris :-cool[link:vatsim-eur.org|VATSIM Europe] Region Director[link:avsim.com/greece/hvacc]Hellenic vACC]http://vatsim-eur.org/images/VATSIM-EURs.gif>>But please stop saying that IVAO is stronger in Europe >than VATSIM[/b. The opposite thing is right. >>>Yours, >Martin Georg/EDDF >Teamchef Eurowings VA >mailto:teamchef@ewgva.de >>http://home.t-online.de/home/martin_georg/pictures/EW_MG.jpg

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if we want to merge IVAO and VATSIM we'll have to pull up the IVAO standard for ATC for sure.But at the same time i hope we could rise the piloting standard as that surely is still a problem.But what would we get then? a society of elite flyers and controllers? that ain't fair in my eyes. Everyone needs to have a shot at it, and don't forget, hotshots were once rookies.Perhaps a thorough educational system that involves students to be able to man(to their rating allowed) stations under supervision of those hotshots, only between certain hours. But of course we'd need those kind of 'instructors' and pilots willing to fly in those areas.It's notthat easy but nothing's impossible

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Hold on! I thought we were all about cooperating to make flight simming better for everybody?What's wrong with VATSIM and IVAO pooling resources so we have one big airspace to fly in?Corporations do it all the time - to make things better and more efficient (though I wouldn't want any 'downsizing' as a result of an IVAO/VATSIM merger - LOL).Why don't you want to cooperate? (quote "the end of my use of VATSIM thats for sure") Don't you want to fly online unless it suits your particular preferences, despite what the masses seem (quite reasonably) to be asking for?

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If there is 1 thing i do actually HATE about VATSIM, it is their pilot training... havent seen any of that around, while i'd really like to see all of the VATSIM hot shots(who don't own a real life degree) get up to the Commercial Captain rating.I can say i'm currently a Senior flight Captain over there, and if i mention it to controllers they tend to relax more of course as they know i'm capable of complex procedures. They just need to say the word: cleared for the option, and they're left with managing the other traffic. when i DO fly on VATSIM, even in the UK, i notice ATC being great but everything being messed up by the "rookies"If VATSIM would have a rating system implemented for pilots, controllers could more easily reduce their own workload and concentrate more on getting those rookies to learn the basics.By the way, according to me the 'amount of connections' is not really something to rely on. I'd rather have statistics about how many pilots on VATSIM can perform, say the EPINO7 transition and profile exactly as it's supposed to?I think you wouldn't reach 30%I'm not saying IVAO would, but i just don't like you guys praising yourselves up asif you were 'soo much better' than IVAO. I think at IVAO we could easily change the standards to VATSIM standards. Look at the Belgian division for example. Our procedures for clearances are quite complicated. I made a summary of it on 1 A4 page, and i must say without it, i'd have to take alot more time to get those eager pilots their clearance. On the other hand, the BELUX-VACC has 2 controllers regularly online. these are both good and skilled controllers, but i have NEVER EVER seen Brussels delivery, Brussels Ground, Brussels Tower, Antwerp Tower, Charleroi Approach, Charleroi tower, Li

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