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barryward12345

Please help with Dash 8 test flight and A/P

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I am really enjoying this aircraft and have read and reread the various documentation that comes with it. I believe that it is obvious that Mr Frolovs' mother-tongue is not English so I think I am missing something when I read his documentation.I have closely followed the flight instructions for the trial flight - pausing the sim when necessary - but I always get to the point where the aircraft has descended to 3300 and is lining up with the ILS (on autopilot) - when something goes wrong and I lose it!!! I can't help but feel that there is an incorrect instruction somewhere in the description of the flight - in particular , regarding the A/P.The description of the various modes of A/P use (in the A/P documentation) is a bit vague for me - and I am sure is directed at experienced simmers . Certainly the A/P works quite differently from the stock FS2002 one.Could somebody comment on the test flight instructions -- and perhaps someone would be willing to write a more detailed instruction on how to use the Dash 8 A/PAny help much appreciatedThanks Barry

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>directed at experienced simmers . Certainly the A/P works >quite differently from the stock FS2002 one. >Barry,I would approach the problem in reverse. Take a good aircraft that is well documented and which has all the AP modes functioning correctly - Grabowski's ERJ-145 comes to my mind. Learn this AP, this is not a "stock" FS2002 autopilot and also comes with a bonus of properly functioning Flight Director. Then you can transition to Dash-8 very easily since you will understand all the major & "typical" modes of an advanced AP. Transitioning to other APs is then very easy - like transitioning from Honda to Toyota ;-)Michael J.

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Barry,There's nothing atypical about this Dash 8 a/p for this phase of the flight. Assuming that you are at 3300 feet as suggested in the docs, ensure that the a/p annunciator reads"ALT" in the lower right corner, and that you have HDG SEL (heading select) in the lower left. You should aim to close the localiser beam from the right at about 30 degrees from the runway heading. The Augsberg ILS 25 freq is 108.50 so ensure that this is the active frequency on whichever NAV receiver you have currently selected. Once you are in stable level flight at this altitude and heading around 220 degrees, and ensuring that you are below the glideslope, select APP on the a/p panel and try to maintain about 160 knots IAS. LOC and G/S are annuciated in white above the current active a/p modes. All pretty standard stuff.Ensure condition levers are fully forward, ignition to manual and autofeather armed. The a/p will intercept the localiser and turn to the runway heading, usually with a bit of fishtailing around until it stabilises. Lower the flaps to 5 degrees and reduce speed to 140 knots. Set the speed bugs to 105 and 120 knots. At glideslope intercept, gear down and drop flaps 15 and reduce speed to 120 knots. Once the a/p is holding the glideslope, you can disconnect the a/p and you're on your own! Maintain 120 knots until the threshold, and then throttle back to 105 knots and GENTLY flare. If you flare too apruptly, you'll lose so much airspeed the kite will dump on the runway and you'll bounce about 80' straight up!Good luck!AndyEGTR

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Thanks for the reply . I will fly later and follow your instructions. In the meantime , below are the exact words from the instructional flight . Could you go through them step-by -step and advise us if something is wrong/missing? Look particularly at the end of the instructions."At around 6-7 nm to WLD, turn the NAV mode off by clicking the NAV button again. Aircraft will enter the HDG HLD mode. This is the

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>I DON"T UNDERSTAND THIS LAST SENTENCE! If you have lined up >approximately for an ILS approach and selected APR on the >A/P -- why is he telling us to select HDG at this point. >For me, it is after carrying out this instruction that >everything turns sour!!! :) Good point. We know what SHOULD happen - you are first in the HDG mode but with APP mode armed. In other APs I worked with when you engaged APP mode it automatically engaged the HDG mode for you as you current lateral mode. Then you could play with HDG, selecting different values of HDG and airplane would turn but with APP still armed. Once localizer signal was detected the AP would automatically engage in the LOC mode. I am not sure how it works in the Dash-8 but suffice to say it is likely Oleksiy's instructions are slightly off (again, depends on the AP). The localizer capture stuff works pretty much the same on most autopilots - experiment and see what happens and disregard instructions that don't work.Remember that the best way to learn the AP modes is actually to play with it for an hour or so and forget all written instructions. It worked for me quite well since I quickly found out that even the best documents (say for 767PIC or ERJ-145) do not cover all cases.Michael J.

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Yeah, it's an unnecessary instruction as you're already in HDG SEL mode from when you turn at the VOR. However, if you had followed the instructions up to that point, you'd have been at a heading of 220 and pressing the HDG button again would simply have placed you in HDG HLD mode, which is no bad thing as you have no more manual changes to make. The down-side might be (I haven't tried it) is that doing so might disarm the APP mode you'd just set. If that happend (check the annuciator for whether the LOC and G/S modes are still armed in white), you just need to re-select APP and you're back where you need to be. I'll run the tutorial again today and check it out.Michael is quite right, experiment - it's always the best way to find out the little quirks of a particular panel. Bill Grabowski's ERJ panel which Micheal quite rightly mentions has a requirement that certain mode controls are cycled when a new altitude is selected. I don't think that this is present in just that fashion on any other panel, and so it can catch you at first, but once known, it's not a problem. The problems come when you flip from one aircraft type to another frequently and never really settle on one panel and really learn it.I think the Dash is the same and requires the same dedication to fly well. You seem to be doing the right thing by really trying to learn this thoroughly and sticking with it which is what I would always recommend.Cheers,AndyEGTR

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>>I think the Dash is the same and requires the same >dedication to fly well. You seem to be doing the right thing >by really trying to learn this thoroughly and sticking with >it which is what I would always recommend. Thanks - and I agree!! But this start-up procedure is starting to become a little tiresome. Certainly, it adds to the whole immersion process when you first start to learn the panel - and is quite distinctly different from the stock FS2002 models . BUT - just when I only want to check out a particular facet of the panel or try out one little thing , I have to go right through the startup process. Now admittedly , a "REAL" Dash 8 pilot has to go through the full startup process- but this IS only a Sim and considering that most of our flying/learning/training processes are mostly a cross between intelligent guessing and trial-and-error (because of overall lack of comprehensive manuals/tutorials) , I am finding that the BIGGEST weakness of this Sim model is the inability to "save" a situation.I wonder if the creator Mr Frolov would consider this in any future updates.Barry

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Barry,Agreed - the ability to save a situation in flight is a must-have for a future version.Anyway, back to your original difficulty with that specific sentence - it's as I thought. Oleksiy has you arming the APR mode _before_ the turn to 220. Arming APR automatically changes HDG SEL to HDG HLD. Therefore, to make the turn from 186 to 220 you need to reselect HDG SEL by pressing the HDG button. I just tried it with several variations. Clearly, the 'normal' procedure is to arm APR only once you're on your LOC interecept heading and then it makes sense to automatically default to HDG HLD after APR is armed as you are unlikely to need to change it and it prevents a mistaken heading change at the critical time. To get a better understanding and sequence, I suggest that you change the tutorial sequence so that the APR is armed AFTER the turn to 220.On reflection, the sequence Oleksiy chose with the tutorial is a bit odd to me, but at least it forces you to learn the quirks of the a/p!Cheers,AndyEGTR

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>>To get a better understanding and sequence, I suggest that >you change the tutorial sequence so that the APR is armed >AFTER the turn to 220. AAAAHHHH!!! -- I KNEW something was happening that was turning my flight to ****! Will try it again today - I figure if I can get the tutorial flight correct then I will be on my way -- but anyway, I see that Frolov has just posted a Version 2 orf the Dash8 - will have to get that first!Thanks for your time Barry

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Barry,Thanks for the 'heads up' on version 1.002.I have just d/loaded it (but not installed) and had a quick read of the revisions.Fixed sample flight situation (So that should help you)New throttle logic & keyboard throttle control, and new taxi Beta range profile. So it looks like those of us having throtle control problems at taxi may now have a solution.Various other modifications including A/P LOC only tracking and better tracking from the A/P.Incidentally no mention of improved panel readability.Having just completed my first hesitant, bumpy, way off course, test flight I look forward to trying version 1.002.Rgds

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>I have just d/loaded it (but not installed) and had a quick >read of the revisions. >>Fixed sample flight situation (So that should help you) I am not sure what he means by this -- as far as I can make out, the instructions for the sample flight are the same as in version 1Barry

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He means he made a fix to the .FLT and .WX files (the ones used to load the sample flight from the MSFS Select A Flight menu).

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Right! That was where the trial flight would not load up in Version 1 because the wrong aircraft was being called up in the FLT file.I "think" I have discovered what I am doing wrong with this trial flight-- I am flying too cautiously and slow (less than the specified 200) - so that when I select full Prop condition (after stooging along at 900 rpm) , my aircraft is slowing too much and I am stalling with the autopilot valiantly trying to maintain 3300' . Of couse, up until today, it all happens so quickly and with such finality, that I couldn't keep up with it -- but I have realised what I am doing wrong now and will try again Barry

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Actually awralls was right about turning APR on when interception course to localizer is already established. Then, the autopilot will be in active HDG HOLD and armed APR mode, and you will no longer need to restore HDG SEL mode. Are you living in Brisbane ?i will be there for next 2 weeks visiting a friend of mine, so we could meet and i can show you how to fly this thing properly :)regardsOleksiy.

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Hi one and all...........how i envy you guys who can get this beast up in the air............have tried the start-up process numerous times parked at runways end(shying clear of the taxi which appears other than straightforward) but when i reach the point of going full throttle nothing happens..........i get no torque, and occasionally i go backwards.........i have a saitek cyborg stick and the latest version of fsuipc installed..........frustrating in the extreme........appreciate any help...........alan d kerr

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Are you removing the throttle lock as explained in the tutorial flight?Have you increased props to max, again explained in the tutorial?Those are the only two things I can of that would prevent you getting any torque although I am far away from being an expert on this plane :-)I have had a couple of attempts, one reasonable successful and a few disasters :'( I must say that the new throttle logic makes taxiing a lot easier, the Dash 8 no longer takes off like a startled gazelle and is now controlable.Last night's attempt ended in disaster when the A/P would not hold speed or altitude, pilot error I'm sure.IMHO the only way to test fly this a/c is by frequent use of the pause button. Reading that first section of the tutorial gives the impression of having all the time in the world to carry out the settings but if you try it real time you quickly find that you are well past the 2.5 DME point for the first turn.HTH

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I would add one more question :Are you using Dash-8 release 1.001 or 1.002 ?Oleksiy.

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oleksiy................using 1.002.........i tried another startup this morning following the sample flight instructions to the letter(having access to the panel pictures a great help).........and yet again i get the engines running.........all locks released......advance the throttle on my joystick(the sliders on the panel move up as we would expect) but all engine values remain at stabilised startup values.........my joystick is set up in fsuipc to have an idle, maximum and reverse setting as per page 3 of the joystick tab, and works fine with all other planes i have in my hangar........alan d kerr

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Hi Oleksiy,I live in Brisbane..hint,hint. :-)Seriously though, I've noticed something with v1.002 of your panel which I didn't think was there before. The gauges for the left engine prop rpm and torque (I think) don't sync with the right engine qauges. I've only noticed it while in climb and cruise. The left prop rpm gauge sits at 1200 and doesn't move with changes in the prop lever whereas the right engine gauges do move and appear to show the correct values. It doesn't seem to affect the handling of the aircraft so I'd guess that it's just the gauge not being updated.Any clues on this strange effect?RegardsAdrian

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Hi ! Propeller sychrophaser may cause this effect. try to fly without one.I"ll check when come back from AU.Oleksiy.

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> Actually awralls was right about turning APR on when >interception course to localizer is already established. >Then, the autopilot will be in active HDG HOLD and armed APR >mode, and you will no longer need to restore HDG SEL mode. >>Are you living in Brisbane ? >i will be there for next 2 weeks visiting a friend of mine, >so we could meet and i can show you how to fly this thing >properly :) >>regards >Oleksiy. >>>OleksiyI would enjoy meeting you and show you around . I live half way between Brisbane and the Gold Coast.My email is bazza1@ihug.com.auBarry

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>Hi ! > Propeller sychrophaser may cause this effect. try to fly >without one. >>I"ll check when come back from AU. >>Oleksiy. I never had the syncrophaser on when I noticed this but out of interest once I switched it on to see what would happen. Everything shot up to maximum, where the left gauge was stuck at, and things got out of control. I've since left syncrophaser off and not worried about the gauge display and everything appears to work fine.No rush to look into this, enjoy your visit here. It's the best time to visit, weather-wise, in my opinion.Adrian

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