Fuel Planner MD-11

[fumap 0]

Hmm, I'm not stupid but FOC appears to be over-complex for our needs, very steep learning curve!I think TOPCAT is sufficient.

Depends on what you want...Do you want extreme realism?? So, use FOC... :( Paolo Bianchi

[Guest BlueRidgeDx]

Hmm, I'm not stupid but FOC appears to be over-complex for our needs, very steep learning curve!I think TOPCAT is sufficient.

Not really. And by not really, I mean "not at all". TOPCAT and FOC do completely different things, though TOPCAT compliments FOC nicely.In the "real world", the takeoff/landing performance stuff (which is covered by TOPCAT) is integrated into the flight planner/fuel calculator (provided by FOC). So it's all one integral package. To get the same functionality if FS, you'll need both products.Unless I'm way off base, TOPCAT doesn't calculate ETP's, Re-Dispatch points, step climbs, cruise burns, TOC/TOD, or any of the actual route planning stuff.Regards,Nick

[Tallguy 9]

I used the Excel sheet from Karl Heinz for a cargo flight LFPG-EDDF (with EDDK as alternative; no FP).Weight: 209.2 ZFW, TOGW was 217.6 and the TOCG was 21.2 ZFWCG was 20.1.Used 30min extra in the sheet at arrival at EDDF. FL230Used FLEX70 with flaps 16Route STAR & SID was done with RC4. Take-off rwy 08, touchdown rwy 25LFlightplan:[flightplan]title=LFPG to EDDFdescription=LFPG, EDDFtype = IFRroutetype = 3cruising_altitude=23000departure_id=LFPG, N49* 00.77', E2* 33.00', +000387.00destination_id=EDDF, N50* 01.59', E8* 32.59', +000364.00departure_name=Charles_De_Gaulledestination_name=Frankfurt_Mainwaypoint.0=LFPG, A, N49* 00.77', E002* 33.00', +000000.00, waypoint.1=RANUX, I, N49* 08.33', E004* 21.70', +000000.00, waypoint.2=MEDOX, I, N49* 20.02', E005* 05.82', +000000.00, UN858waypoint.3=VALEK, I, N49* 30.87', E005* 46.87', +000000.00, UN858waypoint.4=LIPNI, I, N49* 31.80', E005* 50.75', +000000.00, UN858waypoint.5=LIMGO, I, N49* 38.23', E006* 16.90', +000000.00, UN858waypoint.6=BETEX, I, N49* 48.95', E006* 25.52', +000000.00, UN858waypoint.7=BITBU, I, N49* 58.98', E006* 33.70', +000000.00, Z110waypoint.8=TALUK, I, N50* 05.32', E006* 38.88', +000000.00, Z110waypoint.9=ULMEN, I, N50* 13.18', E006* 52.31', +000000.00, Z110waypoint.10=AKIGO, I, N50* 18.33', E007* 01.18', +000000.00, Z110waypoint.11=OSMAX, I, N50* 15.63', E007* 19.40', +000000.00, Z110waypoint.12=EDDF, A, N50* 01.59', E008* 32.59', +000000.00, Sheet gave me 9000kgs of fuel. After shutdown of the engines at EDDF I had 300kg left. I guess this is a bit too low :)Where did I go wrong here?? the 30mins at EDDF? Should that have been more?

[DF9AA 0]

Hi Eric,Will check this - but, I have never planned such a short tripBest

[DF9AA 0]

Interesting flight - as I mentionned before I never planned such a short trip - and I found out that my homemade program is not the best toolfor short trips ( and I will look into this further . . . )I planned LFPG-EDDF with my existing tool - here are the resultsRtfinder gives me a distance of 264 NM but with all SID and STAR miles it sums up tp 364 NMWind generally WEST with 45 kts which gives me a W/C PLUS 22 and a flt time of 49 minsZFW 209,2Burn 6768 kgsCont 5% 338 kgsAltn EDDK 85 NM 2660 kgs30 mins res 3434 kgsMLF 3500 kgsTTL RES required 9932 kgsMin T/O fuel incl. taxi 17200 kgsSo TOW will be 225,9 KtonsFLEX data will be around 50 ( no detailed data checked ) with flaps 18Eric, I will send you my excel sheet with e-mailTo sum it up - for short trips I will have to revise my program ( for the 737 I have already some tables for short flights ), but I have no fuel figures for low altitude flying with the MD11 !!

[Tallguy 9]

Thanks! The FedEx routes are genuine (see further down the PMDG threads...someone posted some short haul cargo flight with the MD-11)I see from the weightpage that we both have the same weight (eg the same ZFW, TOCG settings). The distance you used is different than mine...simroutes gave me 301nm to EDDF.How did you get the SID/STARS in rtefinder? Even when selected, the result still won't give me the extra distances needed to fly the SID/STAR.So...my guess is that due to the lacking SID/STAR info I have too little fuel.I'm trying to give it another go tonight and keep you posted. Thanks so far for your assistance!PS where did you get the info from about the mainly west wind?

[Andydigital 93]

If you use ASA as your weather engine you can import your FP and get a weather briefing or if you have something like FS Flight Keeper the weather page of the ACARS device will tell you what the average wind direction and speed is as well as the wind component, temps etc.

[claviermichel 0]

Hi,Karl Heinz, I'll send you a table for low altitude tomorow. I think I have something which could help you. My guess is that you will have to squeeze a coefficient for short distances some where on the worksheet.From the above short trip what would be interesting to know is what were the fuel burns from 1500 feet until touch down as calculated by the PMDG MD11. WE may see the same problem as we had for the B744. did you guys make a note of the fuel burns?Cheers,

[Tallguy 9]

If you use ASA as your weather engine you can import your FP and get a weather briefing or if you have something like FS Flight Keeper the weather page of the ACARS device will tell you what the average wind direction and speed is as well as the wind component, temps etc.

I've ActiveSky6 as weather engine. Does that have the same option?Still...I see in the sheet I got from Karl-Heinz that his FP came up with EST.TTL.Burn 6768KG of fuel...even less then I had (9000kg).

[DF9AA 0]

Hi everybody,just finished this short trip - it was frustrating in respect to my calculations . . .1. Normally I use rtfinder for my route planning and then I check Navigraph charts for SID and STAR and addthe differences to rtfinder. In this case it was wrong - when I entered the route in the FMC it told me that thedistance will be 305 NM2. Speed - mach nr at FL230 is .71 with a TAS of around 4303. Time and dist to TOC was 10 mins and 60NM - I did not take the fuel ( telefone . . . )4. Fuel at T/Orun was 17.4 ( had 17.5 ttl and spared all the taxi procedure at LFPG ) TO was at 1000Z rnway 08L TOD at 1035 with 10.5 fuel T/D at 1047 on 25L with 9.6 remaining fuel5. Which means ttl burn was 7.8, much more than calculated, for 2 mins less flt time !This means lots of work for me . . . but never mind - it's just fun and interesting for me to work with excel andprepare a new flight planning tool.

[KCA9304 0]

My guess is that you will have to squeeze a coefficient for short distances some where on the worksheet.Cheers,

The onboard FMC may serve as a good reference to obtain a coefficient for short distances.After an 'external' fuel planning you can do without Insufficient fuel messages.Regards,Harry

[claviermichel 0]

The onboard FMC may serve as a good reference to obtain a coefficient for short distances.After an 'external' fuel planning you can do without Insufficient fuel messages.Regards,Harry

Harry, what I suggested is a more generic coefficient which would apply to let's say all flightplans below 500 nm or so. Karl's workbook is more oriented towards long-hauls. In fact when I did some test for Karl I never worked on a flightplan shorter than 1,500 nm. I do realize that there are some short hauls out there for the MD11 which should be taken into account. Cheers,

[DF9AA 0]

Gents,perhaps I am totally wrong in my set-up to generate my flight plans.lets talk about my method :1. I use rtfinder for the basic - in this case LFPG - EDDF brings up 264,3 NM2. I use FSroute.com to create the .PLN file for usage with ASA (or AS6.5 ) I insertQTENIPOR UH101 RANUX UN858 BETEX Z110 AKIGO T180 OSMAX UNQTE also from Rtfinder( I know FSROUTE is tricky since it uses only up to cycle 0610 )it makes no problems in this case - no changes in 0905 !3. I look up on Navigraph the SID for LFPG - today its a clear westerly T/OI plan on 26R and plan to use SID NIPOR 1 B/E which gives me several waypoints to NIPOR which I insert intofsroute - rt finder gives me to NIPOR 58 NM but counting the dep route it will add up to 101 NM plus 43 NM !!4. Same with EDDF STAR - I am planning 25L for landing on the following routingOSMAX EPINO LAGES REDLI MTR LEDKI 25L ( modified OSMAX 3E routing, more realistic to RW app ) which adds up to 91 NM isortfinder 50 NM from OSMAX to EDDF plus 41 NM !5. This totals to 348 NM for the trip6. all these additional waypoints are inserted into FSROUTE which creates a LFPGEDDF.PLN which I can use in ASA and I get a fullflt plan with all the wx info.So far my flt planning .EDIT : Forgot to ask, is there any other source for those .PLN files ?I used this new routing for a new fuel calc - now based on figures which I got from the last trip this morning.flt time will be 53 mins - W/C now plus 25BURN 9300 KGS5% 465 KGSTTL ALTN fuel 9700 KGSTTL T/O fuel 19465 ( 19500 ) kgsTOW now 228.7 minus BURN = well below MAX LW Will fly it now and will report

[KCA9304 0]

Harry, what I suggested is a more generic coefficient which would apply to let's say all flightplans below 500 nm or so. Cheers,

Michel,Didn't mean anything less by that. To calculate that more generic coefficient, consulting the FMC calculated fuel might be handy.Regards,Harry

[fumap 0]

EDIT : Forgot to ask, is there any other source for those .PLN files ?

Hi,I use VRoute if you know it...it's useful for the routes, you can export the .PLN file without problem...no more obsolete AIRAC......only leak is that there isn't the SID or STAR features...you can add those only in your calculations anyway...Cheers,Paolo bianchi