(FSX, XP, ADE9x + others)While trying to design some seaplane dock scenery I ran into a road block.The problem: For some reason I can't get some stock FSX library objects to pitch or bank.The XML code looks correct and I have had no problems using the same method with other objects. I have found that the altitude entry works fine but some objects refuse to pitch or bank,For example: <SceneryObject lat="49.6321668962841" lon="-124.04606182222" alt="20.0F" altitudeIsAgl="TRUE" pitch="45" bank="45" heading="99" imageComplexity="NORMAL"> <LibraryObject name="{3221d6f7-eff7-4535-8914-9483b7946213}" scale="1.00" /> </SceneryObject>Once compiled and viewed in FSX the object, in this case "gen_dock_seaplane_7-25_ramp1B", the ramp's altitude is okay but it is horizontal with no pitch or bank. When the BGL is decompiled the code still looks okay. The code above worked with a wharf. Sure, it looked like a hurricane hit it, but it worked! Do I have to use 'AttachedObject' to place it off the end of a wharf or on a seaplane dock?In the SDK documentation it states:"The scenery format is XML-based and follows a strict file structure with regards to element hierarchies, case sensitivity, and the contents of elements (potentially including white space)."and also"The XML compiler has been designed to be very strict in an effort to avoid ambiguity."Lacking good examples, I found their description of the correct placement, usage and syntax a little vague.First: I would like to put a ramp from a wharf to a seaplane dock. A screen shot of one of the MS examples (below) should give you an idea. How was it done? The example came as a complete MDL file so I couldn't study the coding of how it was accomplished.Second (and more important): Can anyone point me to a tutorial or manual that will explain XML entries in a clear and concise manner? (Preferably with examples) Entries for elements such as for instanceID, BiasXYZ, AttachedObject, etc

Hello Daniel,The example in the screenshot was created in a modeling program, probably 3D Studio Max, and is not the result of some xml code that inclines the ramp.White space is simply spaces, the blanks between words in a phrase (whatwouldwedowithoutwhitespace!)Since I have never tried to pitch or bank the docks, I have no particular answer for you, but I do recall having used banked objects before, so it should be possible. Your xml code certainly looks correct, including your use of feet for altitude.Best regards.Luis

Thank you Luis,I'll first say that I've learned so much from your tutorials, they are really quite good.I already knew that the example was a model, I was just using it as a visual aide. While flying around if I see something similar I'll have to decompile it just to get an example of the proper coding.If you noticed in my query is that pitch, bank, heading, and altitude worked with the wharf. It was when I tried it with the ramps (also the seaplane_dock objects, just as a test) heading & altitude worked fine but the pitch & bank did not. This seemed really strange to me. Is there something in the coding of the model of some other thing in FSX that's causing this outcome? The BGL compiled & decompiled okay, same XML code, but did it compile it correctly so that it would work properly in FSX? But then again why did it work for the warves? (The wharves have a hard deck making them good sea-to-shore ramps for amphibians)I'm just taking some wild stabs at this, wondering where the problem is. It really has me perplexed!!The warves & seaplane docks do have 'Attach Point Names', I was wondering if this a possible route to workaround the issue. I tried it but I get errors during compile time, my XML coding, syntax & ect, isn't what it should be. I would like to see if the result would be the same as before. I haven't seen a scenery design program with the ability/option to do this yet.For now I'll keep looking for better documentation & examples on XML coding (where themissing whitespace issupposedto be, forone).... and maybe some 3rd-party water scenery objects.Everyone?... Anyone?... Any more clues will be appreciated.D.B.C.

Hi Daniel:I just tested placing the same object near Plum Island using Instant Scenery, then I decompiled the BGL using Scruffyduck's BGL2XML 0.92 GUI utility.An illustrated reference page for these FSX water objects can be seen at:http://lc0277.nerim.net/sceneobjects/waterobjects/index.htmlMy decompiled BGL yielded this XML for the above object is below so you can compare:<?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1"?><!-- Created by Scenery Design Engine (SDE) on 1/19/2010 --><FSData version="9.0" xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xsi:noNamespaceSchemaLocation="bglcomp.xsd"> <SceneryObject lat="42.7945868298411" lon="-70.8379076421261" alt="4.43M" altitudeIsAgl="TRUE" pitch="0" bank="45" heading="56.9970703125" imageComplexity="NORMAL"> <LibraryObject name="{3221d6f7-eff7-4535-8914-9483b7946213}" scale="1.50" /> </SceneryObject></FSData>The object in question loads and displays properly with a 45 degree bank on my system.I have, however, read that there may be some FSX objects that will not pitch or bank, but I have no references yet as to which ones those are.Hope this helps ! :( GaryGB

I am not looking to blow my own horn, but the images that I supplied for SBuilderX cover this type of object and also indicate the reference point of each object and the North direction, for example:It is strange, Daniel, because there should be no reason why the sea docks cannot be transformed - they are no different from the wharves. And Gary has been able to successfully add a bank parameter to one of the objects. (Please note that he uses altitude in meters, although this should not have any effect, unless the feet parameter is defective in some way.) Very strange. Could you please post a screenshot of a placed banked dock that is not banking? Best regards.Luis

As far as I recall, pitch and bank were broken in FSX post SP2/Acceleration.This is what I see when running Instant Scenery with bank set to 27 degrees:But this is what I see after re-loading FSX:and the xml code:

<SceneryObject  lat="N50 21.76552"  lon="W005 9.08476"  alt="0.0000M"  altitudeIsAgl="TRUE"  pitch="0.00"  bank="27.00"  heading="0.00"  imageComplexity="NORMAL">  <LibraryObject	name="f21f25fb4e41c40752b2409b1425560c"	scale="1.00"/></SceneryObject>

George

Hello and Thank YouHmmm....Step 1. GaryGB gave me an idea. I'll going to strip all the code except the code for the object. I'll keep my original coords because I have a DHC-6 beached close by. I will also change the altitude from feet to meters, although documentation states it shouldn't matter, it never stated whether or not you can mix them. I'll light it up and take a screenshot of what happens. (For decompilation I'm currently using bglanlyzx.zip & bgl2xml_gui_100.zip)Luis, I also use SBuilderX310. I use it mostly for excludes, major land rebuilds, photo scenery, & vector blah..blah(CVX), and from time-to-time terrain flattens to help get FS9 AFCADs wedged into FSX. I just figured that if you can spin, twist & kick one model around to where you want, you should be able to do it to any model.George: You reminded me that I neglected to state that I am running with SP2 on FSX & SDK. Your examples were very interesting and comments prevoking. Which leads leads me to a possible....Step 2. Q: If FSX got all bollixed up after original release by the so-called down/upgrades.... when did it happen? I just might go back with a fresh start (a repair or reinstall from disc) and do:Test scenery - take notes - install 1 update FSX - then...Test scenery - take notes - install 1 update SDK - then...And so-on, and so-on, and so-on... untill I find out where it happened.I'll post the results as they come in.Thank You gentlemen...

I'm pretty sure that SP1 was OK.Note. Instant Scenery uses OpenGL to display the objects during placement, this is why they look ok while running IS.George

Hi Daniel:George (GHD) makes an important point which I had forgotten about FSX SP2 and Instant Scenery as I posted yesterday before I had to make a hasty departure for the day.When placing objects in Instant Scenery (aka "IS"), by default it creates the placement BGL in [FSX install path]\Addon Scenery\Scenery.After re-starting FSX (with Instant Scenery also allowed to load at FSX startup):1.) Instant Scenery "manages" the last placement BGL it created2.) By default "IS" does NOT enable display of the objects in that file... until that BGL is manually "enabled" via use of the "Open Scenery" button in IS.If one manually "enables" that last placement BGL created in IS via use of the IS "Open Scenery" button:1.) IS causes FSX to automatically re-index the Scenery Library and restore ones flight scenario2.) The object loads at the assigned location and altitude AGL ...WITH a "bank" attribute in FSX If one does NOT allow Instant Scenery to "manage" and load objects that last placement BGL created in IS, and instead does this:1.) Move the last placement BGL IS created into a dedicated folder elsewhere(ex: [FSX install path]\Addon Scenery\Seaplane_Ramp_Bank_Test\Scenery)2.) Via FSX Scenery Library GUI, activate that BGL location using "Add Area"3.) Click OK to re-index the Scenery Library and restore ones flight scenario...the object loads at the assigned location and altitude AGL, but level with the ground... and with NO "bank" attribute in FSX SP2 ! :(In the Instant Scenery ReadMe file on Page 9/25 we see what takes place when one manually "enables" that last placement BGL created in IS via use of the IS "Open Scenery" button:"Instant Scenery will make FS reload the scenery in order to take the display of objects from this file under it’s own control"It would seem that Instant Scenery author Konstantin Kukushkin has achieved some "magic" that ACES was unable or unwilling to allow in FSX SP2 with regard to display of FS scenery library objects (as requested to be placed via our XML instructions compiled via FSX SDK BGLComp).One might wonder if FSX SP2 performance optimization prefers to have all FSX scenery library objects oriented either flat or perpendicular relative to the ground... for more efficient rendering.I would expect this when rendering autogen trees and buildings via a purposeful orientation of autogen objects called by the appropriate BGL and/or AGN file to take advantage of the LOD-based "batched autogen draw" routines that were added in FSX SP1.http://blogs.msdn.com/ptaylor/archive/2007...ork-in-sp1.aspxBut I would NOT expect this when rendering FS scenery library objects (as requested to be placed via our XML instructions compiled via FSX SDK BGLComp).This is a bit perplexing ...and disconcerting ! :(I think it is time for a more intensive inquiry at the Instant Scenery support forum as to exactly what "IS" is doing, that FSX SP2 itself ...apparently can't. :( GaryGB

I'm pretty sure that SP1 was OK.Note. Instant Scenery uses OpenGL to display the objects during placement, this is why they look ok while running IS.George

Hi George:I have read that AFX and IS both use OpenGL for preview of objects in FSX (independent of DirectX which is used for FS rendering and display).Do you by any chance know if OpenGL can be used as an alternative display for FS scenery library objects when NOT using Instant Scenery ? :( The FS Community needs a workaround for proper display of FS scenery library objects that does not rely upon payware to use features that, IMHO, should be achievable via XML placement and the FSX SP2 BGLComp SDK compiler as in prior versions of FS ! :( GaryGB

Hi people,Okay, so after Step 1: My reaction?!!! NOOOooooooo.... :( !!!The code:<?xml version="1.0" encoding="ISO-8859-1"?><!-- Created by Scenery Design Engine (SDE) on 2010-01-19 --><FSDataversion="9.0"xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance"xsi:noNamespaceSchemaLocation="bglcomp.xsd"><SceneryObjectlat="49.6321668962841"lon="-124.04606182222"alt="4.43M"altitudeIsAgl="TRUE"pitch="45"bank="45"heading="99"imageComplexity="NORMAL"><LibraryObjectname="{3221d6f7-eff7-4535-8914-9483b7946213}"scale="1.00"/></SceneryObject>-------------------------------------------------------(Added later for the wharf)<SceneryObjectlat="49.6305"lon="-124.0425"alt="50.0M"altitudeIsAgl="TRUE"pitch="45"bank="45"heading="9"imageComplexity="NORMAL"><LibraryObjectname="{AB882FF9-DD60-479B-BD3E-4E403CA91AAE}"scale="1.00"/></SceneryObject>------------------------------------------------------</FSData>fsx.exe - Version: 10.0.61472.0 - File Version: (fsx-sp2.20071210-2023)BglComp.exe - Version 10.0.61472.0 - File Version: (fsx-sp2.20071210-2023)The result:At this moment will you please remove your hats and rise to observe a moment silence for the digital seagulls who drowned during the production of this screen shot. (I hope that'll keep the digital S.P.C.A off my case)I'm thinking that GHD (aka George) is correct. If enough people reported or have had the same problem then it cannot be just an isolated incident. No wonder when looking for sceneries to download the cerators state; "Works in SP1, not tested in SP2."I'll be off to Step 2. !!!DON'T!!! even try to change my mind, unless you got a better idea. If it is not working the way it is supposed to, then it is of no use to me. Besides I'm finally just getting FSX back up and running after rebuilding my PC due to a major hard drive failure. It won't be much trouble, it'll just take a little time.There are two other objects in the waterobjects that are a little quirky, but that's not important right now. I was just wundering if it is a symptom of the same issue.I'll UPdate this later when I get it fingered out.DBC

Wait until you start looking at generic buildings :( George

Wait until you start looking at generic buildings :( George

Well, a least I can't say that I wasn't warned!!Instant Scenery(IS), OpenGL ? A little over my head for now, but interesting discussion. I'm more of a nuts n' bolts kinduuh guy....hands on. I like to know what's going where. I shy away from self installers. I spent a couple of weeks with a designer from Britan (not dropping any names) trying to figure out why the scenery he installed wasn't completely gone when he removed it. It turned out that some files were placed where they never should have been.Everybody has their own system that works for them, but maybe not for others. I don't say any way is either right or wrong, just as long as it works for you... so be it.I just want it to work properly the way I intend it to. Get some other people to beta test it, and then upload it for others. I don't want to get tons of complaint email saying; "This doesn't work", "That isn't right".Is that too much to ask for? The design programs, tutorials, and forums are a major great help. Tip-toeing around these land mines can get quite irritating and time consuming. Updates should be for improvement and not for fixing shoddy work.....Okay, I better stop my rant here.... but it would be nice if it would work the way it is supposed to, perhaps.'Remember, leading edge goes into the wind and the green beacon is on the starboard side.'DBC(A little bit of rest then 'pitter patter right back at her'.)

If the pitch and bank are important enough to you, then look for suitable FS9 designed objects. Most objects (not all) will work in FSX and have the full range of motion when it comes to being placed. Unfortuantely, many items/features never got "finished" before FSX was shipped to market. Since the FS9 legacy code really needed no major overhaul, it still works in FSX. But there are many situations where something works on FS9 within FSX, but FSX within FSX doesn't.If that makes sense? :(

Hi Lance:Thanks for the excellent suggestion to consider either the default FS2004 objects or 3rd party FS Scenery Object Libraries in FS9 file format (ex: "EZ-Scenery" type libraries found at AVSIM and other FS download sites) for full control over placement orientation. :( BTW: I just now found this thread acknowledging issues with Pitch and Bank object placement in FSX SP2 were observed by Instant Scenery author Konstantin Kukushkin (aka "FSDiscoverer" on Flight1's support forums):http://www.simforums.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=28712If we can't get FSX to render objects in the manner that they are supposed to be rendered when all SDK techniques are followed, I suppose one may have to consider converting and re-packaging certain MDL files from FSX into FS Scenery Object Libraries in FS9 file format for use on one's own system.Otherwise, one would have to model one's own new custom scenery object and then put it into a FS Scenery Object Library in FS9 file format. :( GaryGB