L Adamson, Since my very first post I said it was a welcome tool. I've also said yes - Happy to leave it on the ground, and Its of my opinion that a Good instructor will certainly turn it off for his student. You've made it out to be a necessity - I'm telling you right now, No it's not. It's a welcome tool in the arsenal, JUST THE SAME as VOR and dead reckoning. They are all tools of navigation, and are all happilly welcome in my cockpit. If I do not have a GPS though, (or if it fails) then so be it. It will not ruin my day, because I am equipped and well practiced on Both other forms of navigation.

No, a good instructor will teach both methods; yet realize that GPS is far superior. He won't turn it off with some stupid looking smurk on his face, and say "now what"?I have a good friend that's a Delta Pilot. I've often showed him some of my newest GPS technology. Over the years, my hand-helds were usually beating what was available in the jet cockpit, and in some way's still do, such as XM weather. He's a flight instructor of mine, from prior years, and always had a great interest in what was being developed. The GPS is no necessity. It's just that those of us who use them to their full extent are much better equipped, for anything more than buzzing around the patch. If you think you can argue with that (which you are).........................then you're way behind in your thought pattern. And yes, I remember something about calling the FSS for weather...............:( L.Adamson

One thing that is worth knowing, and especially for us flyers in the UK, where it is difficult to ever be too far away from the coast, is that VOR signals are not simply a case of 'either receiving them or not', in fact the reception of VOR signals is susceptible to distortion near coastlines.Al

Edit:.. Because I'd sure like to hear from, and question an expert pilot willing to say it's OK to neglect ANY nav skill

You have such a way of twisting words. But then, I already told you that.....................many times before.No expert pilot said anything close to that. It's just that your nav priorities are backwards.L.Adamson --- must leave now...

One thing that is worth knowing, and especially for us flyers in the UK, where it is difficult to ever be too far away from the coast, is that VOR signals are not simply a case of 'either receiving them or not', in fact the reception of VOR signals is susceptible to distortion near coastlines.Al

Excellent point.. and one of the reasons that I DO agree that GPS is a FAR superior form of navigation.. until it becomes an excuse to let other nav-skills wane.. :(

You have such a way of twisting words. But then, I already told you that.....................many times before.No expert pilot said anything close to that. It's just that your nav priorities are backwards.L.Adamson --- must leave now...

Backwards ?? All I've ever said was... GPS is grand.. only a fool wouldn't use it as primary navigation... just don't let dependency upon it turn you complacent... that's it.. who would argue with that ?

Adamson, You're putting words into my mouth that I've not said. I said before, and will continue to say, Sole reliance on GPS is a great downfall. If you simply rely on your XM weather info, without a second thought, or on that TAWS, with no backup plan, If you're not checking your charts. The reason it's important to dial in that OBS is because if you don't use it, you lose accuracy and precision in DOING it (You quoted yourself as "Zig Zagging"). This is exactly why YOU have to do a 90 day passenger profficiency, It's exactly why you have to do a BFR. The FAA Knows if you aren't using it, you start losing it. Not once have I said GPS isn't a good Tool, but that's all it is, a Tool in an ARSENAL of tools. I regularly practice those other tools because I may just NEED them some day. the GNS430 is such an easy instrument to use, and the G1000 is even easier, but sole reliance on either one is just flat out Trouble. Practice your other techniques, and even much better is to formulate a flightplan that makes use of those techniques, in co-operation with your GPS (As I do with my VOR's and GNS430 on cross countries), or you will not be profficient in them at a time of need.Edit:Like I said, I can leave the GNS430 on the ground in favour of something that has a black line and really no Situational awareness what so ever. The fact of the matter is though, that while flying I use these techniques and I have my Chart on my knee. And I know where I am the entire time I'm in the air. no GPS required.Profficiency, and a Plan B (For when I leave San Diego on my cross countries), The best course of action.

Exactly ... :( Lose ? In what way ? Where was I proven wrong ? Are you saying that the winning argument was to indeed become over-dependent on GPS ? Care to revisit that argument ?

What is overdependent? That seems to be the argument here.Are people that fly and use their autopilot's overdependent? (Frankly I rarely use mine but for instance the Civil Air Patrol/ most g1000 aircraft teaches autopilot usage from takeoff to landing).Are people that use xm weather with updating tfr's and weather overdependent (I flew for years without this, but consider now a lack of xm now a no go)Are people that use noise cancelling headsets overdependent cause in the old days you just lost your hearing?Are people that use translated duat briefings instead of reading the old archaic symbols overdependent and are people that file their flight plan with their iphone (I do) instead waiting to talk to a briefer overdependent?Are people that lean their engines with an engine analyzer overdependent cause they don't use the ancient method to lean an engine?Are people that use electronic flight bags instead of paper charts overdependent?The list goes on and on-but this is really about technology improving and increasing flight safety, and abandoning old technology which was inferior.Yes-right now I want my 2 vor's as a backup to gps because right now that is the only backup. Doesn't mean vor's not will be history in the near future-they just don't hold a candle to gps just like ndb's didn't hold a candle to vor's....and there is no difference as far as I am concerned with hand flying a heading to keep your dtk with a gps or making a wind correction with a vor-both take the same skill. As a matter of practicallity vor's are much easier to use. Dial in a freq, and turn a knob. I find gps's require a much higher skill level of multiple key presses along with much more complexity of info. So if flying with a gps is supposed to somehow deteriorate your skill I would disagree unless you are speaking of someone who pushes direct to and the autopilot at takeoff to landing.Sure I can fly without a gps-my training aircraft 20 years ago only had one vor for navigation. I even flew a few months ago with every instrument covered except the altimeter. All pilot's that I know of train to a higher standard. That is training-for flying I'll be using my multiple gps's.To not use a higher form of technology that improves safety greatly I would call something different than overdependence.To not routinely train basics I would call the same, and personally I don't know any pilot's who don't.There is a similar argument right now on one of my flight sim boards. Since the ipad has come out there are many using it for display of charts. Many are delighted as this is their first time ever using this technology. When I point out that I have been using an efb for 10 years already, that display of charts was present in the late 1990's and that my already 3 year old tablet does georeferenced charts/plates 3d heads up etc. they come back with "well we don't need all of that" -the charts are enough.I come back with why on earth would you not?Because I use this as another tool am I overdependent? I'll ask Murmers question in a different way. Would you fly with a pilot who does not use all available technology that increases safety?

What is overdependent? That seems to be the argument here.

Over-dependent as in (as has been admitted by some), utter neglect for the other basic skills.By no-means is pilling up, and using every available technology an over-dependence.. it's wise redundancy..Autopilots and GPSs are great devices, if for nothing else that they can make flying more precise, and less fatiguing.But just as an airline pilot is REQUIRED to execute a certain number of periodic, visual, non-autopilot landings as to not get "stale" .. a civillian pilot should NOT navigate soley by GPS..

This,It's my opinion that over dependancy can be summed up by not one of the things that Geofa mentioned, but using those things without Clear and concise knowledge and practice of "The other way"by all means use your electronic kneeboard, for example. Do not neglect pulling out that thick paper book on occasion though and looking for an IFR chart and Pinning it open. You should never have to "Fumble" with it, just be able to simply - do it.If you use the autopilot (Which I typically don't) By all means, use it, but don't ever be afraid to turn it off and Do some steep turns, or stalls, or handfly that 1.5 hour cross country "Just because". That "Just because" is what keeps a pilot proficient, use the new way, but never lose respect and practice for the old. Technology keeps moving forward and sure that VOR will be taken down someday and we'll find airplanes without OBS knobs in them (We already do). The thing is, you have to have Plan B. There is a matter of redundancy for almost everything in aviation. There are a ton of "New techniques" which are very convenient, proven - and safe, and there are a ton of techniques, which are less convenient - but proven and safe. Failure to practice the old - you may just forget the old when something is "Bothering you" on that flightdeck, and something that "Bothers" may just become something that greatly disturbs.Edit:Also, mr. Adamson. I do not exactly follow on your comments regarding the need for airline pilots to have your handheld GPS on board ;). Of course, as a matter of situational awareness, it is greatly increased. That said, Boeing's new 787, and the A380 and soon to be A350, take great advantages in the Avionics department. BUT, that 767 without its fancy displays, as a matter of Fact is so many more times Redundant - and there by Safe, than your handheld, or GPS avionics.If the GPS System were to fail - You would be flat out of luck.if the GPS System were to fail in a 767, They can still use VOR/DME for update (And the system would automatically do so). if every VOR/DME system in america were to fail (there are Way more VOR's than sattelites my friend ;) ) They would STILL have 3 Inertial reference systems (Which are the primary nav source) Those 3 systems take "Dead reckoning" to a whole new level. if one of those were yet to fail, the two other would do fine, if you were left with one and only one - It would be disturbing but that single system would still spit out reliable nav reference If the pilot then determined that that one last IRS failed........Finally he would have a real and very serious navigational emergency on his hands. That is.......3 main lines of defense with 2 lines of defense for keeping that system to a very accurate level.So Don't flatter yourself too much. That million dollar IRS package is worth its weight in gold for redundancy, and having good Navigational data. Which is exactly why it's still in use, and I've heard no plans for either Boeing or Airbus to ditch the IRS/IRU in favour of GPS as a Primary Navigation source. The GPS helps, but the airliners already have a system far superior in having an utmost level of reliability (That no GA pilot in his right mind can afford.........Well maybe if you fly a Gulfstream or similar :) ). Most airliners were built in the 80's/mid90's (or rather designed) when the technology was in its infancy at best, and couldn't be reliably trusted. To fit 80's/90's airliners with the GA Features - Would literally cost millions, if not billions to the industry, when the fact is, while it's very nice to have those technologies It's totally safe to fly WITHOUT them. New airplanes are made, and New airplanes have similar technology to the Military/GA sectors. (The department of Defense had gps first, and they purposefully kept it "Inaccurate" to civilians until in 2000 when the FAA Succeeded in pushing them to make it accurate for Everyone. The catch is the DOD had to find another way to keep it inaccurate for an enemy, which they did.)So your Delta friend will eventually get "All those cool technologies", but such a transition doesn't happen over-night - especially given the alternate is still extra-ordinarily safe. (Just look how often an airliner crashes because of a "Navigational Error" - It's not all that often at all. I have no statistical data on it, but I'm sure Cirrus pilots with their fancy Avidyne Units do it much more often :)

Over-dependent as in (as has been admitted by some), utter neglect for the other basic skills.By no-means is pilling up, and using every available technology an over-dependence.. it's wise redundancy..Autopilots and GPSs are great devices, if for nothing else that they can make flying more precise, and less fatiguing.But just as an airline pilot is REQUIRED to execute a certain number of periodic, visual, non-autopilot landings as to not get "stale" .. a civillian pilot should NOT navigate soley by GPS..

In the sim I prefer VOR's and the INS.Long time ago, the FMC was a marble to have in the sim, remember EFIS98 anyone ? but in the sim it gets boring.Same with the sim GPS, its accurate, like in the real one and gets boring soon. Like glass cockpits.In the sim it is..In real life, when your life is counting, only the best is enough, and that will be GPS, backup with VOR and visual.. to survive that is.In the sim? after a certain time you can walk the dog in the meantime, and takes the fun away imho.

I'd have to say that I fully agree with both Geofa's and RyanB's points. Use the tools you have, don't dismiss any if you already have it. Use all of your resources, they are all good at something. One of the basic things I was taught in flight school was that: Use everything you have, when the :( hits the fan, is the best course of action.Say, RyanB, when can we fly together that Cherokee of yours :( BTW, you people need to fly where the glass is less green! While we are not dangerously exposed here in Colombia, there are parts of the country where the GPS just blanks out, and funny thing, one of the areas it goes out in is quite remote; you can choose to fly COMPLETE VFR, or you can use the sole airway close enough so you don't have to deviate that far from your optimal flight path. The airways on that part of the country are North-south, only a couple are east-west; the next airway that runs north-south is some 30NM away. Flight students learn that the hard way, 'cause they think they are flying VFR and the only thing they have to do is to keep a heading and an altitude...then out goes the GPS, no navaid tuned, no DME (since it was gone with the GPS), no timing and then the instructor goes "where are we?". The answer to the question of course is: "I don't have a :( ing clue..."Mountain ranges are the norm here, with MEA's averaging at 11000ft or 12000ft; yet we still fly VOR's in a safe way. We don't get accidents as often as one might think. And even then, some parts are so remote that the only navaid might be mere NDB, and that would be the only type of approach to use if you are below VFR. GPS approaches? Not a single one. The GPS is not even approved here as an IFR equipment, they are classified as "navigation tools", never as "equipment" per se.Keep using those GPS, but don't you forget the VOR and the NDB; they may be old, but still in use and you never know when it may be the only choice. By the way, if you don't find a use for the NDB nowadays, tune a nearby station if a thunderstorm is close, works a charm as high activity cloud detector B)

Makes me think of my checkride.Takeoff...........Hood on.....Follow first 2 legs of flightplan on time using VOR's (He shut off the GPS mr. Adamson ;) He takes the airplane flies us around for 10 minutes hands it back to me and we do maneuvers (Still under the hood)then out of nowhere. Go ahead and take your hood off...So where are we?I haven't a :( ing clue! hahahahahah. about a minute later I was able to pinpoint my position on a map though, and he brightened the GPS back up and kabam, I was within a mile of the spot I pointed at.As for flying, Anytime you're up in the San Diego area you're more than welcome to head up with me :(

Makes me think of my checkride.Takeoff...........Hood on.....Follow first 2 legs of flightplan on time using VOR's (He shut off the GPS mr. Adamson ;) He takes the airplane flies us around for 10 minutes hands it back to me and we do maneuvers (Still under the hood)then out of nowhere. Go ahead and take your hood off...So where are we?I haven't a :( ing clue! hahahahahah. about a minute later I was able to pinpoint my position on a map though, and he brightened the GPS back up and kabam, I was within a mile of the spot I pointed at.As for flying, Anytime you're up in the San Diego area you're more than welcome to head up with me :(

Ryan-I think you mentioned somewhere that you are just starting your ifr rating.I fly 99.8% of my flights ifr and I think once you start (not the training which will teach everything including adf's if your plane has one, and conventional vor usage) I think you will have a very different concept of gps.Fact is atc pretty much expects you to have one now. If you are flying vfr a gps is very easy to use and being within a mile of something is fine . If you are flying ifr, in the soup, and you get your 4rth full route clearance in 10 minutes time all with unfamiliar waypoints you may find the gps takes on a new life. When I was flying back from Boston a few weeks ago I had a personal 1st. The controller had to tell me to stand by because the new clearance he needed to give me was so long he didn't have time to give it to me (I've told controllers to stand by for a clearance but never had them ask me to stand by!). It took a long time before he gave it to me, and a similar amount of long time to put the plan in the gps, and as always when finally entered the clearance was changed once again.Flying airways on a vor-a piece of cake-tune it to the next fix and keep the needle centered. Programming a gps for a full route in the flight plan with unfamilair fixes in imc-much more difficult. Frankly that is what I use the sim for right now-practicing twiddling the knobs while keeping perfect precision. I know some pilot's that are so intimidated by the process that they use their gps like a vor and just direct to to each next waypoint. One might ask-what has the gps improved then?1) It is quite simple-direct. Almost all of my flights in the last 7 years since having an ifr gps have been direct, or at most 1 waypoint,slight radar vector, or intermediate waypoint for traffic to go to. You save a lot of time this way, and when you burn 28 gallons an hour like my plane does you want to get to where you want as soon as possible. The full route clearances in the air don't happen all that often (except when you get over mid Penna to the east coast and for sure your congested area of airspace)-but they can be super nasty.2) Terrain an obstacles When I did this approach to keat a few years ago I was very glad for not only the situational awareness of terrain the gps gave but also the precision. This is a case that accuracy within a mile as you state above would have meant I might not be here today to write this post. Note approach line and the close proximity of terrain at the bottom of the screen-which is while I was in the clouds.3) Now with waas one can get into airports that one may have avoided in the past-again adding greatly to the utilility of an aircraft.I don't think anyone in this thread has advocated not using everything in your plane to reach to achieve the goal of a safe flight.Remember that business jet that crashed into the mountain just outside Brown Field a few years ago killing everyone? They took off vfr at night and were picking up their clearance in the air. Unfortunately I don't think they had a gps showing terrain with aural voice warnings (which my 496 does). If they had they might all be alive now. All their fms's and glass didn't do them much good. Sad to think a $1000 portable gps might have saved them all.In my flying time I've had rough engines,prop overspeeds, vacuum failure (requiring a no gyro approach) multiple alternator failures, altimeter failure and probably a few more I can't think of right now.Gps failure of my ifr gps-never has happened. Could it? Sure-but on my list of things that could fail it is way down the list. After all-if there was a massive gps outage-my gps would warn me, atc would know-and yes I could go right back to those easier to use vor's.DC-Ed-yes adf's are very good cheap stormscopes. Since I have had stormscopes the last 17 years though my adf is only for listening to the local radio stations.. :(

Remember that business jet that crashed into the mountain just outside Brown Field a few years ago killing everyone? They took off vfr at night and were picking up their clearance in the air. Unfortunately I don't think they had a gps showing terrain with aural voice warnings (which my 496 does). If they had they might all be alive now. All their fms's and glass didn't do them much good. Sad to think a $1000 portable gps might have saved them all.

They didn't. And yes, my portable would have saved them. Of course my portable is quite a bit more than $1000, but my $499 portable discounted to $299 probably would have saved them too.................if they were looking at it. No voice warnings in that one.L.Adamson

Adamson, You're putting words into my mouth that I've not said. I said before, and will continue to say, Sole reliance on GPS is a great downfall. If you simply rely on your XM weather info, without a second thought, or on that TAWS, with no backup plan, If you're not checking your charts. The reason it's important to dial in that OBS is because if you don't use it, you lose accuracy and precision in DOING it (You quoted yourself as "Zig Zagging"). This is exactly why YOU have to do a 90 day passenger profficiency, It's exactly why you have to do a BFR. The FAA Knows if you aren't using it, you start losing it.

Ryan, I do believe you've misunderstood. Zig Zagging refers to VOR to VOR. I'm including two pics from the AOPA flight planner. This is a destination I fly several times every year. The first pic is "direct". It's shorter and faster. I don't usually fly total direct, because I'll include a few airports and scenic areas. We have some extremely scenic national parks around here. However, at best, the route will only contain two VORs. When flying out of Salt Lake City Class B, there is also a restricted military base in the path.Pic 2 is the "zig zag", which I have absolutely no reason to fly. It wouldn't make much sense. I simply don't have too, because I've got a far better method.I get there faster, use less fuel, and see more of what I want to, by flying my own "GPS" route. And in this case, triangulating off VORs wouldn't work well either, as the mountains are higher than the airplane, much of the time.L.Adamson

So Don't flatter yourself too much. That million dollar IRS package is worth its weight in gold for redundancy, and having good Navigational data. Which is exactly why it's still in use, and I've heard no plans for either Boeing or Airbus to ditch the IRS/IRU in favour of GPS as a Primary Navigation source. The GPS helps, but the airliners already have a system far superior in having an utmost level of reliability (That no GA pilot in his right mind can afford.........Well maybe if you fly a Gulfstream or similar.

In newer Boeings, the GPS is the primary source to update the FMC. See the link. It's Boeings without and with the Pegasus GPS system. That's what I've been saying for the last few days. The GPS always comes out as the most accurate, out of the three systems that update the FMC.http://biggles-software.com/software/757_t...on_position.htmAt least my GPS will be just as accurate in terms as where I am... And I probably have a better weather picture overlay, too... :)L.Adamson