I dont know about anyone else but I find the GPS navigations system is quite amazing. This evening I am flyng BA226 KATL-EGLL and well over the atlantic already. Crossed one of the north atlantic track waypoints within 1nm of the position notified. Its a credit to all the developers and the original ACES team that this can happen - thank goodness we are not flying the seats of pants stuff from the 60s and the 70s or before that even.Anyone got any thoughtsJohn

Who needs GPS?That stuff's for wussies, and a lot more goes into navigation than seat of the pants, even back in the 60's.........and earlier than that as well ;). Navigators, pilots shall first and finally be. We're a breed that welcomes the GPS to our arsenal of tools, but are generally quite happy to Say to hell with that and turn it off :DEspecially when the GPS say's you're headed South when your compass and Gyro say North. It's happened to me in the real life and I could have cared less, didn't need the thing anyway.

I dont know about anyone else but I find the GPS navigations system is quite amazing. This evening I am flyng BA226 KATL-EGLL and well over the atlantic already. Crossed one of the north atlantic track waypoints within 1nm of the position notified. Its a credit to all the developers and the original ACES team that this can happen - thank goodness we are not flying the seats of pants stuff from the 60s and the 70s or before that even.Anyone got any thoughtsJohn

Who needs GPS?That stuff's for wussies, and a lot more goes into navigation than seat of the pants, even back in the 60's.........and earlier than that as well ;). Navigators, pilots shall first and finally be. We're a breed that welcomes the GPS to our arsenal of tools, but are generally quite happy to Say to hell with that and turn it off :DEspecially when the GPS say's you're headed South when your compass and Gyro say North. It's happened to me in the real life and I could have cared less, didn't need the thing anyway.

I second that!GPS is a fancy (and helpful) tool, but nothing like good ol' navigation. Tried and true.I would have loved to be a pilot in the 60's or 70's. Using the Omega system, or even better, having my very own navigator just a couple of inches behind me. Amazing thing mate. True navigation.Now is just FMS's and GPS's, they are always welcome, but hey, just as RyanB said, it's good practice to turn off the bloody thing once in a while! :( A good use for GPS though, is VFR navigation; I suck at flying IFR (I Follow Rivers). For real IFR though, I'll take my VOR, my NDB, my DME and my ILS, thank you very much.

I trained in 2000 and newer 172's which were all equipped with NAVII sets and KLN94 GPS's with KMD 540 MFD's (Really really nice IFR GPS package) after my first ten hours or so My instructor would start making points on How to navigate, and he'd simply turn the brightness knob all the way left and the GPS was bye bye. I used it quite a bit in Colorado.Then I moved to San Diego, where I currently fly Archers, One archer has a GNS430, but the airplane that I fly 90% of the time has a mono-color GPS150 with a tiny display. The map is not a far cry from practically worthless for situational awareness, Unless you're following the "Black line" on a Flightplan. That said, because it is worthless, I press the Enter button a few times and then Generally I don't touch it unless I want it to spit out something like a heading for a direct course to XXXX airport. :DAt first, there was a feeling of vertigo, almost overwhelming since I primarily worked with the help of a GPS during training, but within about 5 minutes of pulling out the chart, all of the required training caught up with me in a wonderfull way. The best part of being a Pilot is when you get to turn that GPS off, you have all of your instruments and Nav Radios to guide you anywhere you want to go, You have the ground and different landmarks, lakes, railroads, etc.Yes, the best way to be a pilot is to be freed of laziness and get the mind on the move. Real navigation techniques (Dead reckoning/VOR) does just that. And as you said Ed - It's tried and trued, Tens, if not hundreds of thousands of pilots have done it that way before me with great success. It's neither a broken technique, nor a dangerous technique. IFR Wise (I am Not instrument rated in real life, though I'm well good on the techniques and after a few flights my CFI thinks I'll breeze through it (Thank you Microsoft). I as well, Prefer VOR, DME, and ILS. I would say NDB but we don't have any around here heheh (The airplane has an ADF in it though which is a rare sight at flightschools in the US these days!)Flying's just capable of being way too much fun to throw it ALL on laziness and GPS, right? I will admit I have my lazy days though were I just want to sit back and let the GPS show me where to fly. Just look out the window to make sure the Garmin and the earth agree every 10 minutes or so....It musta been hella fun flying a Learjet (Old one) on a SID with nothing more than fancy radio work. Same goes for the 727/742. It's for this reason that the Tinmouse is a tonne of fun. :) (Hint hint to the Original poster)

I second that!GPS is a fancy (and helpful) tool, but nothing like good ol' navigation. Tried and true.I would have loved to be a pilot in the 60's or 70's. Using the Omega system, or even better, having my very own navigator just a couple of inches behind me. Amazing thing mate. True navigation.Now is just FMS's and GPS's, they are always welcome, but hey, just as RyanB said, it's good practice to turn off the bloody thing once in a while! :( A good use for GPS though, is VFR navigation; I suck at flying IFR (I Follow Rivers). For real IFR though, I'll take my VOR, my NDB, my DME and my ILS, thank you very much.

Oh jeeze.............If I see any more of the GPS is for lazy pilots...................I think I'll :(I guess I'm way past that phase. Have been since around 1994 when I bought my first aviation moving map GPS. I've owned five aviation GPS's since that first one. GPS doesn't make me a "lazy" pilot. It makes me a much more informed one. These days I use a Garmin 696 portable with XM Satellite weather. Thanks to the satellite weather uplink, I can make decisions far in advanced when it comes to anything weather related. It also shows current TFR's that might pop up at any time. And BTW ------- I also use a GPS based satellite tracker. It sends out signals during the entire flight, that are displayed on a Google map. Has a 911 emergency button also. This sure beats flight plans and flight following. But that's okay, as I fly in mountain regions where flight following can't always get radar signals.So what else do I get with GPS. It's called precision! The states in which I fly are dotted with military airspaces, let alone your typical airport airspace. A GPS will show boundaries within mere feet. Instead of stuffing my head into the cockpit to triangulate my current position, I can spend more time scanning the sky for other aircraft. Besides, my GPS also controls my auto-pilot. I can program a complete flight from the comforts of home and a flight planner coupled with this computer. The A/P will then precisely follow the plan, should I choose to do so. Best of all, if worst goes to worst, my GPS has detailed terrain and obstacle databases. It's just for those times when you don't expect it. I should know, as I have "flight into terrain" databases that go back to the early 1950's. I know all the reasons, and wherefors, and how GPS would have made the diffence, had it been around. It's always been an interest of mine.So here is what I'd do. If I ever had a flight instructor who turned off the GPS, I'd throw him/her out, and get a new instructor. These days, GPS is where it's at. Radio navigation is becoming nostalgia. GPS can do more, and does do more, than radio navigation (VOR's) could even think of doing. Flying cross country these days without at least a cheap portable GPS is almost as stupid as not carrying at least a hand-held comm radio.Let's just say, that I so far past this argument, that I won't even spend the time hashing it out with simmers, students, and even a few flight instructors. I'm more into what GPS is capable of, including the new wave of synthetic vision glass panels, than wasting time with the notion that VORs are somehow real piloting. All a VOR is, is a navigation aid that was good for it's time. It was much better than what preceeded it. Now, it's truely inferior in nearly all repsects, to what's available now. And P.S. --- I keep hearing, "what if the GPS quits" crap. Well, it's been many years since I've lost the GPS signal. And since I'm around many commercial pilots, I always get their view on GPS versus radio & inertia navigation. GPS always wins, and it's always more accurate.... of their three nav systems.L.Adamson

@LAdamsonWell, you have stated your reasons and, as always, everyone has their own opinion on the matter. Personally, I don't consider myself "stupid" 'cause I used to fly in my flight school days without a GPS. It was actually turned off, because it was installed, but I never really used it. Was my life in danger at any time? Nope. Did I get in any kind of trouble for not using it? NopeYou may be aware that not every country has a decent GPS coverage as your own (I'll assume you are in the US?). For instance, we have a couple of "black holes" here in Colombia and this is not a flat country. The best way to avoid getting into high elevation areas really is to know where you are and where are you heading to (easily done with just a chart and a clock, amongst other tools) as terrain doesn't just pop up out of nowhere.Thing is, as I said earlier, everyone has their own vision and opinion over certain aspects. I know if someone asks me before getting on the airplane "hey, here's the deal: you can take either your conventional navigation equipment, or you can just take the GPS" (I know, not happening), I'd know in a heartbeat which one I'm going to pick (pretty sure is the same RyanB would take).Best regards

GPS is useful, but I find it does tend to make you think a bit less about where you actually are in comparison to doing it the old way, where you get out a map and plan a route and pick visual references etc. It's great for logging positions in gliding competitions, instead of all that photographing your wing whilst you circle over the turn point malarkey that we used to have to endure years ago, and I daresay most glider pilots would agree with me in being glad to see the back of all that faffing around.Even so, I'm one of those people who doesn't like to rely on GPS too much, especially since it can actually be turned off in certain areas of coverage from time to time, when there is a military exercise taking place (that happens once in a while over the North Sea for example, although since I was once nearly hit by two RAF Harriers that were flying a military exercise, I'm inclined to avoid areas where military jets fly if I can manage it!). I've found GPS coverage can very occasionally be a bit patchy in certain areas of the UK too (notably the North tip of Scotland, where I've had it drop out on me), and if it goes when you are using it as your sole reference, it can be quite alarming.As far as simming goes, I actually quite like the challenge of navigating across the ocean using the old methods, in fact I recently did that with the A2A Accusim B-17 from Newfoundland to Greenland, and the Plane Design Lancaster from Greenland to Iceland, using Sun Shots with its sextant to determine my position, and it was really very interesting and fairly challenging too. I suspect if I had used the GPS, it would have been rather boring, but having to work out drift and do all that E6B malarkey made the time pass in a more interesting fashion, which is useful in an aircraft that does well to make 200 mph IAS, because it's a long flight in real time.Al

@LAdamsonWell, you have stated your reasons and, as always, everyone has their own opinion on the matter. Personally, I don't consider myself "stupid" 'cause I used to fly in my flight school days without a GPS. It was actually turned off, because it was installed, but I never really used it. Was my life in danger at any time? Nope. Did I get in any kind of trouble for not using it? NopeYou may be aware that not every country has a decent GPS coverage as your own (I'll assume you are in the US?). For instance, we have a couple of "black holes" here in Colombia and this is not a flat country. The best way to avoid getting into high elevation areas really is to know where you are and where are you heading to (easily done with just a chart and a clock, amongst other tools) as terrain doesn't just pop up out of nowhere.Thing is, as I said earlier, everyone has their own vision and opinion over certain aspects. I know if someone asks me before getting on the airplane "hey, here's the deal: you can take either your conventional navigation equipment, or you can just take the GPS" (I know, not happening), I'd know in a heartbeat which one I'm going to pick (pretty sure is the same RyanB would take).Best regards

When I started in 1968, we didn't have GPS either. Soooo..........neither one of us are "stupid". And yes, I am aware that parts of the world do not yet have the GPS coverage, and especially WAAS as we do (even if one satellite is out). And since you're in Columbia, the Boeing 757 Cali, Columbia accident is one of the important ones on my "flight into terrain" list. The aircraft had it's modern flight computer for it's time (1995), but didn't have what we refer to as a large moving map display, that's now widely available for even portables, let alone a Garmin 1000. I can guarentee, that had the 757 been equipped with even the hand-held GPS that I have today................it wouldn't have gone down in those mountains. The pilots would have sensed the screwup immediately, as the "big picture" wouild have been right in front of their eyes. And it's the same for the commuter jet that took off on the wrong & too short runway a few years back, with a total loss of lives. My 696 presents an airport runway & taxiway layout, with my aircrafts position. The pilots of this plane would have noticed the wrong runway , had they had up to date technology. Unfortunately, there are still plenty of commercial jets in operation, that have much less navigational capibility than todays Cessna 172 trainers. I also live in a mountainous area where an average of three flight into terrain accidents would occur every year. BTW-- my son will be down that way next month. L.Adamson

GPS is useful, but I find it does tend to make you think a bit less about where you actually are in comparison to doing it the old way, where you get out a map and plan a route and pick visual references etc. It's great for logging positions in gliding competitions, instead of all that photographing your wing whilst you circle over the turn point malarkey that we used to have to endure years ago, and I daresay most glider pilots would agree with me in being glad to see the back of all that faffing around.

I disagree. This is the same notion, that's got many aviators in the past in trouble. They just didn't look at the map! And while they didn't look at the map, the modern dummy will just follow the mageta line to doom. In fact, we've had two flight instructors do that around here, in the last few years. Regardless, I can go on & on about accidents in which the pilots had to rely on the old way. All the way back to Frank Sinatra's.. mother. In the meantime, with the advent of synthetic vision, and the hope that Europe will soon get it's GPS affairs in order...................we might all have safer skies in the future. edit: I don't use GPS much for flight simming....either.L.Adamson

I don't suppose many pilots rely on only one gauge to tell them what their aircraft is doing... Use GPS by all means but use it in conjunction with every other navigation aid at your disposal. And make sure they all agree with each other and with your judgement.I use the GPS quite heavily in FS9 but mostly as a moving map just to follow my progress. I find a lot of pleasure in geeky things like mixing trigonometry and MS Excel to make my own course correction or fuel calculators, and in arriving at a beacon or an airfield under my own steam without having 'seen' it beforehand.I spend a lot of RW time in the mountains and rarely see another climber or walker without the latest gadget. It does depress me to find that the 'best' equipped are usually unable to read a map, estimate a distance or height, or even hazard a guess at their ETA back at the roadside. I've never used a real GPS- can't afford it (won't afford it... I have lots of maps). I don't really fly either- definitely can't afford that! Still, it seems to me that relying over much on one instrument is going to lead to a sudden end to your day. :( Regards,D

L Adamson,I find you mentioning the 757 accident, While a G1000 is nice, or a moving map what have you. Its capabilities are limited and much less accurate than a dedicated Ground Radar, which modern airplanes with EGPWS are being shipped with. I wouldn't rely on synthetic vision to keep me out of a mountain, sorry. As I said, many of these technologies induce a sense of safety and I've seen plenty of pilots get Lazy from them. They do and will fail, You can't trust them as the end all of technology. Just as you can't trust VOR's as the end all (Which is why we do VOR checks ;) ). One day there will be a pilot who's so used to his G1000, and loves it, and when it fails - He'll not know what to do with that piece of paper, the Attitude indicator, and the Altimeter sitting just above his throttle. He will feel alone and left for dead - The same way I first felt when the GPS was shot off by my instructor. If Instructors do not continue to throw variables and make their students lifes and prove a sense of Urgency in the matter of Knowing the basics which have been Proven over One hundred years (Dead reckoning with the Mark 1 eyeball). Then aviation is probably pretty screwed as far as I can tell. Why? As said, GPS's Fail. they create such a great sense of situational awareness when working that we have plenty of pilots who love to get lazy with them. They are just about as lazy jane as lazy jane can get. I resent schools that do primary training on G1000's, as I said it's a good tool to the arsenal, but the GPS creates such a sense of awareness that people need to get over it, turn it off, and fly with the Mark 1 eyeball. That's the basis of Aviation for over 100 years. The FAA Requires all PPL's to complete their cross countries based on Dead reckoning for a very good reason. You can trust your GPS, I will trust my Eyeball. We have very accurate topographical charts for VFR, and accurate IFR charts with Minimum safe altitudes for a Reason. A pilot who can not use just those two tools and the minimal equipment is a Pilot who should not be licensed. A pilot who can not shut everything down to the minimal equipment is a pilot who should not be licensed. As I said, I'm more than happy to turn a GPS off, I applaud and greatly approve of instructors who require their students to go without GPS and know how to use a chart, a radio, and the Pitot static system/Directional Gyro. That's all that a Pilot Needs to safely conduct a flight. It's a practice that should be kept active on and understood well.I wonder how you would do if I took away your GPS and put you in a new part of the country to fly, with a reasonable amount of traffic and airspace. How well would you do?San Diego is covered in Class Bravo airspace. We have 1 military airfield (Miramar Marine Corps Air Station) 1 High turn around General Aviation airport (Montgomery Field) and 1 High traffic International airport (San Diego Lindbergh). They are ALL within 10 nautical miles of eachother (With the general Aviation airport being smack dab center, all departing and arriving GA airplanes have to cross the flightpath of the active runway if going past the military base to the north, or lindbergh to the south (if headed to say Mexico or Brown field on the Tijuana border).http://skyvector.com/?ll=32.82093039560293...=126&zoom=4Military, GA, and Commercial - Packed into a small area and covered in Class Bravo. I only moved here recently I have about ten hours in the airspace (Jack diddly ######). I fly it without the help of a moving map in that Cherokee you see in the picture, I do it comfortably as I'm secure in my ability to keep clear of Class Bravo, do my traffic scans, and get where I need to go. So let me ask you, Could you do that comfortably? or would you be scared to do it without your GPS? I only did two flights with an instructor here, and that was to get the checkout and learn about the airspace structure.Know it, love it, do it.When I have the other cherokee (With a GNS 430) I leave it on, it lets me know where I am in relationship and I can check it vs. the Chart. But like I said Mark 1 eyeball and Nav Radios for the cherokee in my picture :). It keeps me on my toes, and sharp. It allows me to fly and navigate better than most whom rely commonly on their GPS. I wouldn't want it any other way.

I don't suppose many pilots rely on only one gauge to tell them what their aircraft is doing... Use GPS by all means but use it in conjunction with every other navigation aid at your disposal. And make sure they all agree with each other and with your judgement.I use the GPS quite heavily in FS9 but mostly as a moving map just to follow my progress. I find a lot of pleasure in geeky things like mixing trigonometry and MS Excel to make my own course correction or fuel calculators, and in arriving at a beacon or an airfield under my own steam without having 'seen' it beforehand.I spend a lot of RW time in the mountains and rarely see another climber or walker without the latest gadget. It does depress me to find that the 'best' equipped are usually unable to read a map, estimate a distance or height, or even hazard a guess at their ETA back at the roadside. I've never used a real GPS- can't afford it (won't afford it... I have lots of maps). I don't really fly either- definitely can't afford that! Still, it seems to me that relying over much on one instrument is going to lead to a sudden end to your day. :(

Do you have any idea of how my hikers have been injured or lost over the years, and never made it back to civilization? Or how about the guy in southern Utah a few years ago, who's hand became logged in a rock slot, and he finally had to cut his own arm off to get free? Do you think these individuals might have preferred a GPS tracker that allows an instant emergency message for help, or at least lays a breadcrumb trail on a Google map for others to follow?I believe the answer is yes. I think they might have just preferred the latest gadget possible, if it was available at the time. As previously mentioned, I do fly over a lot of mountain country as well as that desolate but beautiful canyon area in southern Utah. And I do carry the latest GPS tracker along for the ride.And no, most pilots are not spinning OBS dials and triangulating positions these days, when they have a large moving map screen before them. They just seem to have a much more informed mindset of where they are all the time. Not to mention close by airports in case of an emergency. And how do I know this? First, it's from experience. Then I ran the question and a poll on a forum that has many commercial/ military/ and private pilots............because of a similar thread on a different flight sim forum. GPS isn't one gauge looking at one VOR. It's looking at 24 orbiting satellites and usually picks up eight to twelve, plus the WAAS satelittes if available. And it only needs three or four for a position, and automatically throws out...........what appears to be bad information. And I do have two GPS's operating at any one time.L.Adamson Satellite tracker pic. This unit is on for every cross country

And no, most pilots are not spinning OBS dials and triangulating positions these days, when they have a large moving map screen before them. They just seem to have a much more informed mindset of where they are all the time.

And that is exactly the problem which turning off a GPS on a student circumvents. Like I said, It's lazy jane. Redundancy is the best course of action a Pilot can take in aviation. Plan B always needs to be fresh.

I resent schools that do primary training on G1000's, as I said it's a good tool to the arsenal, but the GPS creates such a sense of awareness that people need to get over it, turn it off, and fly with the Mark 1 eyeball. That's the basis of Aviation for over 100 years. The FAA Requires all PPL's to complete their cross countries based on Dead reckoning for a very good

Resent them all you want. Of course in real life, the students that began with the Garmin 1000 beat the "six pac" students by many hours in completing the PPL. The Garmin 1000 students began navigation on day one, beside learning how to fly the airplane. This is from an actual test study. I must disagree with you Ryan. GPS just isn't just a good tool to add to the arsenal. It's a navigation tool that beats any other form, including a set of eye balls. And yes, it does creat a sense of awareness. That's it's main purpose!!! It's a sense of awarness that all those pilots and passengers from my fatal accident files could have used. Why turn it off???????????????This is the way it is in real life. First off, I fly many cross country flights. It's the reason I own an airplane. I use a computer based flight planner that has access to real time weather. I also have current sectionals for any change in information. I'll lay out the complete flight plan on the computer using more direct routing than VORs. All routes are checked against restricted airspaces and terrain. This is then transferred to the moving map GPS. In flight, I'll have a printed out flight plan, along with comm freqencies, as well as the current sectionals. These are all on a kneeboard. Now.........thanks to the GPS, my Mark 1 eye balls are constantly scanning for other aircraft, as well as all the surrounding surface for "dead reckoning". In fact, since I don't have to worry about spinning OBS dials with my head in the cockpit, I am finally free to pick out for more objects in the distance, and then compare to the sectional. Of course, all this time, the GPS which is also connected to my fuel flow monitor is giving me an exact readout of fuel consumed, what is left, and how much will be required to get to the destination. The terrain feature of the GPS also allows for altitude adjustments to get over terrain that is miles in the distance. And I already mentioned satellite weather that is depicting real time weather for hundreds of miles around, including AWOS or ATIS at the destination airport. It also gives me the current altimeter setting. I can get all this information much sooner than waiting to pic it up on the comm. And of course, all these flight plans are retained in the GPS for future flights. In fact, all flight information is gathered by the GPS and retained within it's memory. It's a mini black box, in a way.L.Adamson

And that is exactly the problem which turning off a GPS on a student circumvents. Like I said, It's lazy jane. Redundancy is the best course of action a Pilot can take in aviation. Plan B always needs to be fresh.

I'm out of here for the day. But in the meantime, OBS's won't work well, when the VOR system is decommisioned. That's the plan, and it will happen. As to "lazy", that's pure nonsense...L.Adamson

I said it before and I'll Say it again,When your GPS fails you (They do fail, btw, they are man made). It was just another tool in the arsenal. We've been flying for over a hundred years on the Basis of the Eye, and if you Can't do it, or feel uncomfortable doing it, then I can't say I'd sit easy to fly as your passenger. You know why G1000 pilots get their licenses quicker? (I bet you don't, I don't even think that study would mention why just that they do) but here's why I 'think' they do:The G1000 allows for a quick scan of all aplicable information in the cockpit (I'm checked out in it) Altimeter Speeds and attitude can be done within just a half second, since they're all written out for you. to the right hand - You have a big &@($* moving map, and engine instruments, Easier to get the basics than it is in a six pack - sure thing. this person only knows the G1000 now, what's he going to do with those 3 bottom gauges when it fails? and how the hell is he going to find his way home in a Realiable and totally safe manner? not on the mark 1 eyeball, he didn't practice it enough and is used to reliance on the G1000. He's lost without his GPS.It really is that easy, I've flown the G1000, and Nav II cessna's. The NAV II's keep me sharper as a pilot, the Cherokee without the GPS keeps me in line to never rely solely on a GPS, It is a tool, but I do not trust it with my life. That trust belongs to my eyes, and a cross check of charts/eyeball-earth/Radios/gps :).Have fun with your GPS, Like I said. It's a good tool for the arsenal, but nothing more.Your "plan" about removing VOR's is still many years off (if it'll happen). They still haven't gotten around the issue of GPS reliability in Weather (Which would HAVE to be overcome, it is not, sending and receiving signals to and from space is not simple when you have a nice thick cover of clouds, and/or snow Rain). Not to mention Every airplane in America would have to have the Equipment (That would take years and Many Millions of dollars from the pockets of aircraft owners). Mark my words - the VOR is still going to be around in 2020, And probably beyond that in America. I almost guarantee it.