MD11 Take Off from TNCM

[vololiberista 205]

What a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong take off run. The VC10 fully laden would still take off about 1,000ft earlier!!!!!vololiberista

[KCA9304 0]

Fedex & UPS stopped using deflected Ailerons because the maintenance was too expensive, so it's flap 25 is the highest option.

Rob,There are still companies that use the Deflected Aileron option.Thank's John for that video link.For that reason I wrote earlier://There's one more setting possible, Flaps 28, if you have the Deflected Aileron option.//Too bad if TOPCAT can't account for that.Regards,Harry

[SMITI07 53]

Great video.The MD-11s have very impressive climb performance when light.

[SMITI07 53]

Just to add to the above, I just recreated that takeoff, and it was great fun. Was rotating literally half way down runway 10.

[walfob 10]

Great video John; and excellent discussion all round on this topic. I've learnt a lot. The video looks like the BOPAT2 SID (Transition JUICE)from TNCM which I've just used to complete a KLM passenger flight to Schipol. I did cheat a little by loading 30,000kg fuel for take off and adding extra fuel on route. I found that 75,000kg total fuel was sufficient for the flight with about 17.03 EFOB on landing. I'm afraid life's too short to spend too much time carrying out fuel calculations. I prefer flying. I used to do the calculations for the 747-400 as it came with the fuel calculator, but the MD11 doesn't have this facility. With experience of calculating fuel for a variety of distances and loadings I began to choose my fuels loads by inspection - pro rata'ing for different distances. I know this wouldn't do for the commercial airlines, but it's worked perfectly well enough for me with both models over the years.The REDF1A STAR to 18R at Schipol worked perfect. I'm now going to have a go at the UPS flight from TNCM - EHAM with Rob's data.RegardsBernard WalfordUK.

[michal 44]

What a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong take off run. The VC10 fully laden would still take off about 1,000ft earlier!!!!!vololiberista

Nonsensical commentary (unless it is supposed to be a deliberate joke). Barely 23 sec takeoff roll - well below average for this class of aircraft. The aircraft probably carried little fuel for its short hop to Bonaire hence iis acceleration and climb was so brisk.

[KCA9304 0]

Great video John; and excellent discussion all round on this topic. I've learnt a lot. The video looks like the BOPAT2 SID (Transition JUICE)from TNCM which I've just used to complete a KLM passenger flight to Schipol. I did cheat a little by loading 30,000kg fuel for take off and adding extra fuel on route. I found that 75,000kg total fuel was sufficient for the flight with about 17.03 EFOB on landing. I'm afraid life's too short to spend too much time carrying out fuel calculations. I prefer flying. I used to do the calculations for the 747-400 as it came with the fuel calculator, but the MD11 doesn't have this facility. With experience of calculating fuel for a variety of distances and loadings I began to choose my fuels loads by inspection - pro rata'ing for different distances. I know this wouldn't do for the commercial airlines, but it's worked perfectly well enough for me with both models over the years.The REDF1A STAR to 18R at Schipol worked perfect. I'm now going to have a go at the UPS flight from TNCM - EHAM with Rob's data.RegardsBernard WalfordUK.

Bernard,There are no real world flightplans TNCM-EHAM operated by KLM, being it 747-400, MD11 or 777.This does not mean that a flight TNCM-EHAM is impossible with these aircraft.Also the UPS flight Rob suggested yesterday can be done with the TAKEOFF figures provided, no discussion about that.Normally companies use standard flap settings for every standard takeoff (PMDG 22, KLM 20) but if the performance has to be optimized, dial-a-flap comes into view.Having the Deflected Aileron option, Flaps 10 to 25 Dial-a-flap and also Flaps28 is a valid option for takeoff when it lifts more weight.Not having this Deflected Aileron option restricts the max flap setting to Flaps25.In the video, observe the deflected aileron option.Regarding TOPCAT:Not using it yet. Wonder if it uses deflected ailerons as an option.So far my observations in this thread.If you just want to fly and skip all those details:Enjoy the fact you will make it to SPL and expect radar vectors on the REDFA 1A arrival from D293O.Also have an arrival fuel quantity in mind around 10.000 KGs, (17.000 is really overdone), that's more than sufficient to the diversion options you have.Regards,Harry

[walfob 10]

Harry,This is the TNCM - EHAM flight which I obtained from the IVAO Pilot Database:TNCM SID n/a End EHAM STAR n/a Altitude High altitudes Type High Alternate n/a Route PJM 2000N 2800N 3300N 3600N 4000N 4600N OMOKO UN486 GUNSO UN492 GAPLI UR8 MID UR123 CLN UL620 REDFA Comments OPERATOR/KLM EQUIPMENT/MD11 Operated by KLM Addressees None Created 08/02/2005 Updated 08/02/2005 By 100796Admittedly it looks a bit out of date, but it doesn't appear to indicate a short haul stop-over en route. I thought it represented a direct flight. There are no westerly co-ordinates to the fixes, so I modified them by using the co-ordinates of a flight from EHAM to TNCB using the closest fit. It worked fine. RegardsBernard

[JOR 0]

In real life no flight will ever be done from TNCM-EHAM. When you lose power in 1 of the 3/4 engines (DC-10, MD11 B747's Airbus A3xx etc)or losing even more (for example a bird strike hits 2 engines) no way you'll get out of there. @BernardYou can see if youre calculations are Ok. You just have to fill in everything and at the Prog page you need to have left about 10k (KG) at alternate. Also check your payload and remaining fuel at original destination (to avoid exceeding MLW).Because this is just a simulation game and you wont have the actual weather on route etc, you might come in too much on fuel. Too short is not an option, even with FS when you do it right. Same for flap setting for T/O. Dial a flap is the magic of MD.JohnPs. Thx to all for the kind words on the video. Pps. I wonder why FDX doesn't use flap-ailerons? Never heard about a lot of issues with that...Ppss. You can't do all the math with fuel etc. because it's a game. A good one, but for example trim settings aren't correct. Too less info from Boeing as I understood. MD11 still the best one to fly with!

[KCA9304 0]

Harry,This is the TNCM - EHAM flight which I obtained from the IVAO Pilot Database:TNCM SID n/a End EHAM STAR n/a Altitude High altitudes Type High Alternate n/a Route PJM 2000N 2800N 3300N 3600N 4000N 4600N OMOKO UN486 GUNSO UN492 GAPLI UR8 MID UR123 CLN UL620 REDFA Comments OPERATOR/KLM EQUIPMENT/MD11 Operated by KLM Addressees None Created 08/02/2005 Updated 08/02/2005 By 100796Admittedly it looks a bit out of date, but it doesn't appear to indicate a short haul stop-over en route. I thought it represented a direct flight. There are no westerly co-ordinates to the fixes, so I modified them by using the co-ordinates of a flight from EHAM to TNCB using the closest fit. It worked fine. RegardsBernard

Hi Bernard,Good to see you made it from TNCM to EHAM.With a moderate payload it is possible, no doubt about that.Regarding IVAO's Flightplan, it's indeed a direct route with no intermediate fuel-stop. But KLM does not operate that route that way.( the westerly coordinates missing....see below.)From Amsterdam to St. Martin there are two weekly flights in the winter schedule.Sundays with a 747-400, KLM785, operating EHAM - TNCM - TNCC - EHAM.Fridays with a MD11, KLM 763, operating EHAM - TNCM - TNCB - EHAM.When using this flight tracker:http://flightaware.com/live/flight/KLM763/history/20110122/0122Z/TNCB/EHAMalso info about the flightplans can be found AND this includes the westerly coordinates too.Funny thing is that the airway from MILOK A516 to RKDIA is taking you right overhead TNCM (PJG VOR).Happy flying,Harry

[89vliegaap 0]

Another thing which I did not see here, spool up the engines with the brakes engaged and release the brakes just before you reach full power, it will save you some runway. Also leave the packs off, and do not use the TOGA button but just manually push the levers all the way forward. Maybe it's not the normal MD-11 technique, but I used this often in the Tushka and it works in the MD-11 as well. Second, if I make a manual fuel planning based on 8:30 min with alternates EHRD and EHEH, I come up with about 81 a 82 metric tons total which leave a bit over 3 tons as contingency and approx 12 tons alternate, hold and reserve fuel. It's not completely accurate since I'm still finding the correct number and I also like to fly at M085.Then, full pax (mixed config) with about 20kg of luggage each but without cargo should be possible, unless you have tailwind.Last thing, don't use too much flaps, they create drag. I would use flaps 20. In EHRD the runway length is comparable and there I managed to depart for fully loaded 7 - 8hr flights. I agree that it does not give you a lot of margin, but it is possible. Dion Mollert

[FLEX1978 373]

Dion,A few corrections to your post so not to confuse the OP1. Use TOGA thrust not manual thrust (either way the FADECS will limit you) 2. Use more flap not less flap - It reduces your VR which is what you need on short runways, the extra drag is only a issue on the second segment climb as the extra drag reduces climb performance which can be a issue for obstacles.It's not a debate over what flaps to use, accurate performance calculations are done nowaday's using onboard laptops. As mentioned TOPCAT or at least UTOPIA are a must for these products as performance is pretty close to the real thing Regards

[FLEX1978 373]

..

[89vliegaap 0]

First of all, forgive me for my English, I used another foreign language all day and because of that everything is mixed up in my head....

Dion,A few corrections to your post so not to confuse the OP1. Use TOGA thrust not manual thrust (either way the FADECS will limit you)

Then what exactly is the advantage of TOGA? I still recommend manual thrust, and I think that the best way to depart TNCM is fully manual. Just behind the runway is a very steep mountain, so after departure you have to turn right immediately. Personally I prefer manual flying in that situation.

2. Use more flap not less flap - It reduces your VR which is what you need on short runways, the extra drag is only a issue on the second segment climb as the extra drag reduces climb performance which can be a issue for obstacles.

Agreed, but in my opinion you should use just enough flaps and not more because you want to have a good climb-rate after departure. If 20 is enough then why would you use more?

It's not a debate over what flaps to use, accurate performance calculations are done nowaday's using onboard laptops. As mentioned TOPCAT or at least UTOPIA are a must for these products as performance is pretty close to the real thing Regards

They are not imho. If you know that you can t/o from a certain runway, why use these programs? There is no real engine wear and tear so reduced thrust doesn't give you that much advantages (ok, maybe some fuel but how significant is that on an 8hr flight...).For the fuel calculations, I have TOPCAT but I don't use it for two reasons. One, I like to have more influence. Two, coming from the PT Tu154M, I'm used to do it by hand.But ok, maybe I'm not the most carefull person...Dion Mollert

[fumap 0]

A 25 flaps setting gives you a very good rate of climb...I use it anytime because it's the value used by FedEx on each flight in real world...I used it a lot and i'm happy with the climb performance you achieve after takeoff, also with a high load craft...TOPCAT is used to improve realism, you are right when you say that there is no tear or wear over the engines in FS world but using reduced thrust gives you "realism"...and if you come from the PT Tu-154 you know what i mean...BTW, the russian way of fly is not the same of the MD one. The MD11 is an hi-tech automated airliner, with automatic controllers, FADEC, FMS, etc, etc...The Tupolev way is the old and good one, with all done by hands, starting from the navigator, the flight engineer, and the handling of the plane...no FBW, complicated FMS, or other "helps"...just a KLN90...(i love both ways...)Cheers,