Many thanks for the head-up!Stamatis

"...My question is, how far wider and how far longer can he fly and still remain inside what is known as the protected airspace of the hold."http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/53792.jpgAdjustments in the hold are made with reference to the fix on the inbound leg. Assuming you are holding below 14,000', you should have flown 1 minute outbound after entering the hold. When you turn inbound, if the time crossing the fix is LESS than 1 minute, you should add that time to the outbound leg. Example:If inbound =00:45, then fly outbound for 01:15Or, if the opposite is true, your inbound leg to the fix might be longer. Here is an example of this correction:If inbound =01:15, then fly outbound for 00:45The above examples depict winds that are parallel to the holding course.For crosswind corrections, (winds perpendicular to the holding course) you will need to establish a wind correction angel (usually by bracketing) on the inbound course to the fix. Once you have determined this angel, it is recommended that you double to tripple it on the outbound leg. Example:If inbound correction =10degrees, then the outbound wind correction should be 20 to 30degrees. I've found that doubling usually works best. By applying these techniques, and practicing them, you will remain inside of the protected airspace. Hope this helps. :)

The AIP Canada says pilots manually flying the aircraft are expected to make all turns to achieve an average bank angle of 25 degrees or 3 degrees per second whichever requires the lesser bank, so that covers your turn rate, the outbound/inbound legs are covered by timing unless its a DME hold where its off distance now instead of time. So if you follow that, you're well within protected airspace.Chris

Thank you Chris, I know the technique but my question was based on the fact that if for example you apply an outbound wind correction angle of 20 degrees, these 20 degrees might get you so far outside of the "optimal racetrack" pattern for no-winds that you might end up outside the protected airspace of the hold. Surely there is a limit how far out you can go in terms of wind correction. Same for distance of the legs flown.The reply posted regarding the crosswind limits taken into account when designing these holds (at least in the US) answers my question.Many thanks for your nicely presentated message, it never hurts going over this topic again!Stamatis

Hey all,I've another question for you guys. When flying above 14000' in a civil turbojet you should normally fly at 265kts. When doing this you can't do a two minute turn unless you you use excessive bank angle (for standard rate turn speed * 0.15 = bank angle therefore 265 * 0.15 = 39.75

1/2 standard rate turns are used above 14000. (4min. 1.5 deg/ sec.)

I found it...Pilots are expected to adhere to the aircraft entry and holding manoevers in RAC 10.5 (just describes patterns) since ATC provides lateral seperation in the form of airspace to be protected in relation to the holding pattern.Chris

Actually 265 kts at FL140 equals 324 kts TAS and the required bank angle for a standard rate turn is 42 degrees, assuming no winds :-)For the jets, in most such circumstances the limitation is usually bank angle. You would be normally required to fly this turn with no more than 25 degrees of bank.Flying at half standard rate turn, i.e. 1.5 degrees per second, you would require 24 degrees of bank.Stamatis

Hey Stamatis,I thought you used indicated instead of true for speed restrictions?Anyway thanks for confirming that for me (also thanks to chris).CheersDavid

Is this assuming standard atmospheric conditions? I thought TAS was 'Equivalent Airspeed' (CAS corrected for MACH compressibility) corrected for non-standard temp."Actually 265 kts at FL140 equals 324 kts TAS..."

Is this assuming standard atmospheric conditions?Yes, ISA conditions.I thought TAS was 'Equivalent Airspeed' (CAS corrected for MACH compressibility) corrected for non-standard temp.Equivalent Air Speed is EAS. TAS is True Air Speed. GS is Ground Speed.EAS is CAS corrected for compressibilityTAS is EAS corrected for density altitude.GS (Ground Speed) TAS corrected by the wind component.To calculate a turn you take into consideration TAS, and if there are winds, GS.Stamatis

I thought you used indicated instead of true for speed restrictions?IAS and Mach, as the case may be for airliners. But to which message are you referring?In my previous message I used TAS in order to calculate the required bank angle for a turn, nothing to do with an airspeed limitation. Stamatis

EAS is CAS corrected for compressibilityTAS is EAS corrected for density altitude.GS (Ground Speed) TAS corrected by the wind component.True.You stated:Actually 265 kts at FL140 equals 324 kts TAS and the required bank angle for a standard rate turn is 42 degrees, assuming no windsHere's what I'm asking:1.) Since TAS is EAS corrected for non-standard temperature (Density Altitude). How did you arrive at this number? What temperature did you use?2.) How does wind, in any way, effect a standard-rate turn? :)

1.) Since TAS is EAS corrected for non-standard temperature (Density Altitude). How did you arrive at this number? What temperature did you use?Correcting for density altitude does NOT mean "correcting for non standard temperature". TAS will vary with altitude even if all altitudes remain at ISA (i.e. standard) temperature.How did I arrive at this number? As I said before, not knowing the exact temp I solved for ISA temp and calculated TAS from CAS at that altitude/temp. Then I calculated the required bank angle to complete a 180 deg turn with that TAS, assuming TAS=GS.2.) How does wind, in any way, effect a standard-rate turn? :)Where did I say that wind affects standard rate turns? A standard rate turn is a standard rate turn no matter how much wind blows.But if you care about where exactly you will end up after you finish your standard rate turn (or any turn for that matter), then wind plays a hell of a role :-)In very simple terms, if the wind is pushing you away from the inbound, with a given bank angle your turn will be tighter than what it would have been if there was no wind, or if it was blowing you towards the inbound course, in which case your turn would be wider.Thus, you would end up in different locations, even though you flew the same standard rate turn in both cases.This is why pilots add 2 or 3 times the wind correction angle of the inbound leg to the outbound course. To compensate for the above, and to be able to perform their turn with a "standard" bank angle (be it for a standard rate turn or a 25 degrees bank turn).Stamatis

Well Stamatis, There's one thing in aviation that there's a helluva lot of, and that's opinions. :) TAS is ONLY a correction for non-standard temperature. And you'd better not be adjusting your standard rate turns in a holding pattern for ground track, not matter what the wind is doing. This would be a very bad practice. :)Merry Christmas. :) All in good fun.