Hi GuysJust to clear a few things up.In the USA(only place in the world i believe)holding timing is done for the inbound leg.In the rest of the world hold timing is done on the outbound leg.I personally cannot for the life of me understand how you can accurately time an inbound leg as it is the length of the outbound leg which defines the size of the holding pattern and hence the length of the inbound leg.Hope this clears up a little of the above confusion.Darren

Hi Darren,We time the inbound and outbound legs in the US. How is it done elsewhere?

>I thought you used indicated instead of true for speed>restrictions?>>IAS and Mach, as the case may be for airliners. But to which>message are you referring?>In my previous message I used TAS in order to calculate the>required bank angle for a turn, nothing to do with an airspeed>limitation. >>StamatisHey Stamatis,I was refering to reply no22. Sorry for the confusion I didn't mean airspeed limits as you would receive from ATC rather the speed limits used in the hold (i.e 230kts for jets below FL140).To clarify; Why would you start using TAS to work out the bank angle if all the 'speed limits' are given in indicated speeds? E.g. If a hold requires you to fly at 230kts IAS why would you not use this in all parts of the hold, including working out bank angle?I'd imagine that if some pilots in a hold were flying using TAS and some using IAS it would cause a few headaches therefore everyone uses IAS to keep things simple.Is this not the case?Also I know that, dependant on conditions, the GS of the aircraft will change even though indicated will stay the same, but this wouldn't cause that much of a problem as the main people your trying to miss are mostly going to be on the same level as you and thus will be flying in the same conditions. (Just to add to the confusion in here :)) As for which legs get timed - both of them, although one (the inbound) should, in theory, never change. The idea is to have the inbound leg on course and only flown for a set length of time (e.g. 1min). The outbound leg is also timed but only to apply corrections to the hold pattern to adjust for winds. The outbound leg is yours to play with - this one doesn't need to be held to a precise time.Did that clear anything up or did I make it worse? CheersDavid

As you say,There's one thing in aviation that there's a helluva lot of, and that's opinions. :) Correct, and I respectfully disagree with yours :-)TAS is ONLY a correction for non-standard temperatureI believe the term "non-standard temperature" is incorrect in this context. Correct term is "Density Altitude" because Density Altitude will change as you climb/descend even though air temperature may remain equal to ISA, i.e. remains "standard".And you'd better not be adjusting your standard rate turns in a holding pattern for ground track, not matter what the wind is doing. This would be a very bad practice. :)I am sorry but you totally misunderstod what I said. Please read my message #28 again, aspecially the last two paragraphs. I do not believe we disagree, if we manage to properly ndesrtand each other :-)I am sorry that my writing is not clear enough. I am better talking things than writing them down :-)Merry Christams to you too! :-)Stamatis

Hi Chris,Why would you start using TAS to work out the bank angle if all the 'speed limits' are given in indicated speeds? E.g. If a hold requires you to fly at 230kts IAS why would you not use this in all parts of the hold, including working out bank angle?Only reason I used TAS in the example above is because the only mathematical/physics way I know to calculate bank angle for a required rate of turn asks for TAS :-) I honestly do not know a formula where using IAS suffices.I fully agree that in the cockpit one would use a rule-of-thumb, like you did, because 100% accuracy is not required. But when one is sitting on his desk he has all the time in the world to compute it "by the book", so to speak :-)I'd imagine that if some pilots in a hold were flying using TAS and some using IAS it would cause a few headaches therefore everyone uses IAS to keep things simple.LOL!! I never said anywhere I would fly based on TAS, did I? I only used TAS to accurately compute a required bank angle for our example, that's all.Is this not the case?It is, of course :-)Did that clear anything up or did I make it worse?Regarding the issue of which leg is the important one for timing purposes, I believe that there are varied techniques depending where in this world you happen to be flying. I think your explanation suits the US method.I any case, I am off from tomorrow for some Christmas holidays, so please do not think badly of me if I fail to reply to any messages!Merry Christmas to all!Stamatis

Actually, I beg to differ.It's the inbound time that counts. Outbound time is adjusted to obtain a 1 minute or 1.5 minute inbound (depending on the altitude).The first outbound leg after the initial holding fix passage shall not exceed 1 (or 1.5) minute. The minimum inbound leg shall not exceed the appropriate time. Subsequent outbound legs should be adjusted as necessary to acheive the correct inbound time.This is how the Canadian aviation regs read and I am positive the FARs are no different in this respect.Kevin in CYOWOops, I should have read further down. I see lots of people caught the error. As a note for the originator, this whole thread would probably be more at home in the How to Fly forum.