Hey all,I've been practicing flying holds recently and was wondering if anyone knew what kind of tolerance you can get away with in real life with regards to the inbound leg time?CheersDavid

Hi David,Inbound leg time is irrelivent. What you're concerned with is staying within the protected airspace that the hold provides. You should fly your outbound leg exactly the time specified (i.e. 1 minute) and immedaitely commence your S/R turn to inbound. The actual inbound leg time will vary of course depending on your ground speed, which depends on the wind and TAS. There are of course fudge factors built into this. I don't know the exact figure of the SIZE of the protected airspace that a particular hold provides, but it is big enough to handle less-than-perfect timing/turns and of course lots of WIND.In real life the important thing is to get in the hold (no matter how you do it) at the correct altitude and try to stay as tight to the hold as possible. You won't be worrying about how perfect they are, and neither will ATC. Just stay in the general protected area and you're good to go. During my IFR training while practicing holds we would often ask approach "Seminole 456 request the hold at ABC vor as published" and they would give us the clearance, and we would contact them again when we wanted out of the hold. This was in actual IMC many times. My first hold attempts were VERY shabby but not once did ATC ever say anything about it :)Of course during checkrides this is much different. You better nail it. Proper entry method, exact standard rate turns, good navaid tracking, and perfect timing on the outbound leg (don't worry about the inbound) are all important.Damian ClarkHiFi Simulation SoftwareDeveloper of ActiveSkyhttp://www.hifisim.comhttp://www.hifisim.com/images/as2004betateam.jpg

Hey Damian,Thanks for all the info, I'm usually getting the timed leg (the one that counts) to about

Hi Damian,I am nearly finished my FAA IR right now. You said the inbound time is irrelevant when it actually is the important leg.The inbound leg is always one minute (1.5 when above 14,000 msl), unless it is otherwise specified in a clearance as a different time interval or a DME distance. The airplane should be on course (on the specified radial) throughout this leg.The outbound leg is adjusted in length to compensate for the wind so that the inbound leg is one minute long. So if you have a headwind you go outbound for longer opposite for tailwinds as your groundspeed will differ. The outbound heading is also adjusted so that the airplane completes the inbound turn just as it intercepts the holding course inbound. Regards,Stephen

Its the inbound timing you want as a minute, the outbound timing is irrelevant in a hold ONCE established. Before you are established the OUTBOUND will be a minute, when you turn back in you get an idea of what the winds are doing by the time it takes you to get back to the beacon (over a minute, or under a minute) then apply the appropriate correction. (Add 1.5 times the time under a minute to the outbound if short of a minute inbound, Subtract 1/2 the time over a minute on the inbound leg off the outbound leg) So if your inbound took 50 seconds, add 15 to the outbound, (1.5X10) If you took 1:20 on the inbound subtract 10 off the outbound (1/2 of 20) So fly 50 seconds outbound.ChrisATPL/PPC PA31-350/PA23-250

Hey Damian,actually it is the inbound leg that needs to be 1 minute (or 1 1/2 minutes, depending on altitude), not the outbound leg. I don't quite remember the PTS for deviation, but at Comair we were trained to keep it within +/- 10 seconds.Cheers,Petehttp://members.aol.com/pzsoulman/myhomepage/logo.gifAthlonXP2000,AbitKX7-333(latest4in1),512MB/2700SDRAM,WinXP,DirectX8.1,Geforce3TI200(128MB)(Det.30.82),SBlive(WDM5.1.2601.0)

Hi guys, you are right, sorry I have got it reversed.... See what 2 years away from flying can do to you! I better hit the books :)Damian ClarkHiFi Simulation SoftwareDeveloper of ActiveSkyhttp://www.hifisim.comhttp://www.hifisim.com/images/as2004betateam.jpg

Thanks everyone for the info :)CheersDavid

"I don't know the exact figure of the SIZE of the protected airspace that a particular hold provides, but it is big enough to handle less-than-perfect timing/turns and of course lots of WIND."Where can one find this info regarding the size of the protected airspace for a hold? I've searched for it but have been unsuccessfull so far.On the same topic, I believe that the biggest misconception we flight simmers have regarding holds is that for a hold to be perfect it must look like a perfect racetrack. In fact, this is only true for no winds. In any other situation a perfect racetrack is not the correct pattern because it simply cannot be flown. During windy conditions the perfect holds look like... pears :-)Stamatis

The protected airspace for each hold is found on sector charts at each ATC facility. This is not a chart published for pilot use, but for controller use. As long as you make the turns in the correct direction, comply with speed limits, use nav equipment that work within legal tolerances, and comply with any other particular restrictions published on your chart for that hold, you will stay within the protected airspace.

Hello Kevin,I guess this explains why I cannot find the info :-)Thanks!Stamatis

Stamatis,In the USA, the FAA publishes the [a href=http://av-info.faa.gov/terps/Directives_files/Order%208260.3_1-18.pdf]TERPS[/a] (Terminal Instrument Procedures) that provides detailed information and design criteria for all IFR procedures, including departures, enroute, approaches, and holds. This is the "bible" that is used for designing and certifying IFR procedures. I don't know how it works in other countries, but I imagine it is similar.The Minimum Vectoring Altitudes mentioned above do show the controller the minimum safe altitudes for his/her sector, but they certainly don't cover all possibilities. In the Rocky Mountain area that I fly, there are many holds and approaches that do not have any radar coverage, due to terrain and/or a lack of radar approach control facilities. In that case the pilot is obviously responsible for flying all IFR procedures exactly as published, since there is no radar "safety net".Dan

Thank you but I think you misunderstood my question.When flying a hold with crosswinds, it will not be possible for the pilot to a fly a racetrack hold, as depicted in the charts. I am sure you know why, no need to explain this.Depending on the wind, he will have to go wider/narrower and/or shorter/longer on the outbound leg.My question is, how far wider and how far longer can he fly and still remain inside what is known as the protected airspace of the hold.Stamatis

Hey Stamatis,I don't think there is a set size for the protected airspace. I've read that unless you really screw up big time you'll pretty much be protected all the time, even on the worst hold you'll ever perform :)CheersDavid

I have a hard time reading these FAA publications, but I think the reference I provided above along with [a href=http://av-info.faa.gov/terps/Directives_files/7130-3A.pdf]FAA Order 7130.3A[/a] has everything you need. FAA Order 7130.3, which defines holding pattern design criteria, mentions that wind effects considered, based on 5-year measured winds, is 50 knots at 4000 ft MSL, increasing at a rate of 3 knots per each additional 2000 feet of altitude, up to a maximum of 120 knots. As long as the wind is at or below this criteria (from any direction) and the maximum airspeeds are observed, the aircraft will remain in protected airspace.