CargoMun, Yes All ALL MaskClassMap=1 & 3 to 0ThanksChris Willis[link:fsw.simflight.com/FSWMenuFsSim.html]Clouds And Addons For MsFs

Will...You tackle so many different issues and lump them in together, I don't know where to start.... But with your last comment--how many respected members here suggesting a patch have slammed Microsoft? How many? The same individuals will always show up these threads and air their petty gripes against Microsoft--you know that to be the case. But their presence doesn't discredit the issue considering the presence of others here who know the business (and Microsoft staff) as well or even better than you do.I almost see a veiled threat here, but I don't see it coming from Microsoft. The threat seems to be "have a patch, but don't expect new product from Microsoft anytime soon." Come on! We know better than that.... FS2000 was patched twice, and I'd argue that it was in the same state at launch that FS2002 was, and FS2004 as well. Yet FS2002 still showed up, right on schedule.I could imagine the laughter from my users if I told them their next upgrade would be delayed due to a patch. A professional team allocates the resources for a patch, period. It at least makes AN ATTEMPT to fix the issues, rather than say "nope, we don't do patches" or "you can have your patch, but no new product"....If I'd guess, I suspect that the team members on the MSFS project would release a patch tomorrow, and I know they have the resources to do it. But my own team has often had to sideline projects because of something handed down from "on high". We take a huge amount of flak for it from our users. There have been a couple of instances where we have been told not to release a completed patch, simply because politically that isn't acceptable (i.e. a prior release needed a patch, so we don't want to make the product look too bad). I think politics is what it comes down to, plain and simple. I, like you, am upset, but for a different reason.First, I don't like to see misinformation and patronizing comments, both which have come in spades in these threads. Second, some here (I suspect those with bottomless wallets) seem so dang concerned that a patch would delay their next precious release of product, that they will slam my friends in any way they can just to shut the issue down. And that gets me "really" upset..... I don't give a hoot whether a patch is released--I can fly without one. But I will defend those here who have that opinion, especially when I see them being unfairly spun into the web of Microsoft bashers and being lectured to like schoolchildren when doubtless some of them are old enough to show me a few new tricks....

Very well put, John :)And cheers for the help on the terrain tweak, Chris Willis.

Thanks John for showing some support. You know that a bug is a bug, and when people are moaning for nothing.Jason

I'm a bit surprised over the strong reactions against people venting their need of a patch. What's the big deal? I respect Microsoft for giving me something like FS and a lot of other software I use daily at work. Can't you ask someone you respect for a patch? I'm also surprised over the twist and turns in some posts where the author neglect all bugs but the CTD-bug. And then make it to a very rare bug not nearly existing! May the reason be that some people are afraid of making MS upset so they'll quit making FS at all? Or do they think they'll get a free copy of the next release as a thank you for lojalty? I really can't understand the energy behind some posts. The gaming/simulation world is full of patches, why should FS9 be the exception?My 2 cents,Jan Bergwall

Hornit wrote:"This whole issue is really simple and clear cut. MS's silence on the whole thing is deafening."And this is what is most disconcerting.Any software as complex as a simulator cannot be expected to be perfect right out of the box. Other developers address their product's bugs with patches. Many even offer free upgrades. As an example, LOMAC has been on store shelves for less than five months and already the developers have a second patch in beta testing. Yet Microsoft remains eerily silent about their sim's problems.During development of this latest MSFS we were advertised by the seller that it would offer a better weather engine. Many purchasers would dispute that it is indeed better. We were told that the VFR graphics would be greatly improved, yet in order to get the sim to work without worrying about CTD's the purchaser must disable many of these enhanced graphics.In the past I was one of the diehard MicroSoft customers who was promptly at the cash register when they released a new sim. That won't happen in the future. In the future I will spend my hobby dollars on other titles from developers who are willing to acknowledge and attempt to fix their product's bugs.In the end the laws of consumer economics will win out.

Lol Jan,I thought a few people seemed to be getting a little thin-skinned about this discussion concerning the need to fix a few items in FS2004 myself. It doesn't seem to me that people asking for FS2004 to be patched are asking MS for their blood, thier lives, or their very soul to provide a couple of fixes. I'm not trying to say it wouldn't take some time to work on it. I know it would. Unfortunately it doesn't seem they care to provide that level of customer service.If the naysaysers for a patch need to concentrate on a bug that is easily reproducible and effects a great deal of people then how about about the severe/abrupt winds aloft changes that rips your plane apart when using real-world weather. When that happens does it not more or less stop the show for you in mid-flight? There are a couple of work-arounds. But that's all they are, work-arounds. I imagine you can uncheck 'Aircraft Stress Causes Damage'. Or perhaps fly well below the Overspeed limit. Personally I fly well below overspeed limit. And still go into overspeed sometimes! I have implemented a tweak in my FS9.cfg that seems to have helped alleviate the problem somewhat, but only to a slight degree.-----------------------------------From Anthony(LLgaz):"But this also brings out another flaw in the thinking of a lot of us in this Hardcore community. The Wind shift problem was present in FS2002. I wonder how many or you remember that? I guess most of you dont....why? .....because FSUIPC provided a "fix" for the problem. Everyone was happy and no one demanded any fix/patch from Microsoft. The only reason why this wind shift problem is still being mentioned here every now and again is because no one has figured out how to fix it yet.And therein lies the problem....we in the community always think that if someone can fix the problem then Microsoft doesn't have to do anything about it. That is probably one of the reasons why Microsoft is so hessitant to release patches because they figure that if there are any problems with the sim, someone in the community will always come up with a "fix" or "work around". And we are the ones who has trained them to think like that."-----------------------------------Hmmm, from what Anthony says we had this problem in FS2002. Did MS fix it in that version of the sim? No. And it it's readily apparent to me that they have not fixed it in FS2004 either! In fact, they have changed the weather engine in FS2004 in such a way that it seems to be irreparable by anyone, so far anyway. Am I so awful in wanting and asking for this to be fixed? When is MS going to care to fix this bug? Certainly, I would hope, this is not the way that real-world weather was evsioned to work by the makers of FS2004 on peoples aircraft by people that use the 'Aircraft Stress Causes Damage' option.To summarize what I said in my previous post in this thread is simply that. MS does not care to provide a certain level of customer service for MSFS in the way of providing fixes for a few issues in the way of a patch/service pack. As a couple of folk have esentially stated, there will always be something that can be pointed out by users that MS could do to improve or fix even after a patch. Fine. I still think MS would gain more respect about it's level of customer service when it comes to MSFS if they were to make and release a patch. Sure, there'd still be people asking for this or that to be fixed. But then as long as the patch(service pack, whatever!!!) worked and fixed something at least, no one including myself, could say that MS doesn't care to release fixes for at least one or a few glaring flaws in MSFS.I'm not asking for perfection and a fix for every little niggle. But how about at least fixing the severe/abrupt winds aloft change. Would it be nice to have it fixed now? Yes. But how about at least fixing it by the next version of MSFS? In my mind, if we don't have threads like this come around every now and then pointing out such bugs then they may never get fixed.Do I feel terrible in stating my feelings and asking for a patch to fix this? Naaaa, I'm not that thin skinned.I want to end by saying I am thankful for FS2004 and enjoy it a lot. I can live without a patch too. It could be worse. MS could have released a buggier product and then release a patch or two(or three or...) just to bring it up to the standard that it is now and then thay could say, 'Hey, we patched it. You wanted patches you got it." So overall, now matter which way you look at it, I don't feel too bad about the current situation. A patch would be nice though.Cheers,Jim

John,As ever, your reasoned arguments continue to impress, for they certainly have impressed me.Well, when I responded to the original poster I never anticipated what might follow! What seems very clear, however, is that contrary to what many prefer to believe, feelings are still riding very high on this issue. One can only hope that the range of impact extends far wider and others are also taking note.My own feeling is that these complaints, grumbles, frustrations, irritations - call them what you will - are not so much expressions of anger directed at those responsible for policy decisions, though these are very real and certainly should not be taken lightly if MS has any respect at all for our community. Rather, these voices are trying to convey levels of frustration that have grown at the apparent lack of a will to provide an acceptable level of support and feedback. Like you John, I've come to regard this sim as a far better than okay product and it's creators rightly deserve the kudos for a fine achievement. What continues to disappoint me, however, is the all too evident unwillingness of MS to allow the FS Development Team to cultivate a more open sense of partnership with the 3rd Party Developers and the Hobbyist Community. Why should they, some will respond? Quite simply because many of the included features we now see appearing in the sim are a direct result of listening to what is being said, witnessing what is possible and a consequent natural desire to see them incorporated in some form in a future version of the sim.My contention is that FS would not be as popular worldwide were it not for the enthusiasm shown by so many talented individuals who wish to see it continue to grow and mature. Like it or not, MS are indeed profiting from this enthusiasm. Surely the argument is now beyond reproach that the time has come when that same community of individuals can feel entitled to expect more consideration than is currently being given in return? Economics and politics aside, this for me is a matter of simple courtesy and an acknowledgement of the valuable contributions made. If Microsoft could be persuaded to cross the Rubicon, then maybe, just maybe this could signal far better days to come for everyone concerned and it would certainly earn MS some much needed points in the popularity stakes as well :)Mike

Oh, I don't feel theres anything wrong with wanting a patch at all. I'd love it if MS released a patch. I think the problem is with either extreme - on the one hand theres the folks who seem to think there are no real bugs at all, and on the other hand theres the folks who act like MS has to patch it to render it useable. I'm in the middle. If theres a patch, I'll be there downloading it. If there isn't, I'll happily continue flying around as I have been since FS9 first landed on my PC...