Hi.It may help if every time the full name of a company / group, that is not presently paying for advertisement, to be charged a specific amount, if not just remove the message. I think most of these people have no idea what a real business is about, or how it's done. They are in it for the free handout. Just my opinion, of course. As for some that seem to be upset about my post, I have one question, What is it that you find in the pay ware, that makes a REAL difference from practical stand point / simulation, that is not available in freeware? It's only eye candy, and you are more than welcome to spend your money on it. Just have the companies / developers pay their share also, not just use these boards and the freeware developers as free hand outs. TV

There is plenty of space in this hobby for both payware, and freeware. I have a mixture of both. I use the FS Traffic 2000 for AI traffic in FS9 because I prefer it to the Project AI software, which I use in FS2002. I think that both are excellent, but I prefer the FS Traffic. I use Flight Deck Companion in FS9; payware, but then there's no freeware alternative is there? Aha!! there we go...payware that is justified by being the only one of it's kind....the fact that it is a damn fine piece of software might come into it too!!I love the Airbus A320 and A330's, and use the PSS A320 in FS2002, but as it still isn't working in FS9 I am very happy with the Project Airbus version, coupled with Eric Marciano's brilliant panel. Likewise, the POSKY A330 is brilliant, along with Eric's panel. The only real difference with the A320's that I have found is that Eric doesn't have the same level of advancement with the FMC, though to be honest, I haven't fathomed out properly how to use the PSS one yet, so Erics' simpler version does what it needs to do, and does it nicely.But there's a good example of the differences between freeware and payware: PSS obiously have the resources and maybe decent access to the aircraft systems in a way that Eric probably doesn't and can't have. If you crave the details then you buy the PSS and get all the bells and whistles, but if you'd rather not go into all that then Erics' is a fantastic, highly detailed alternative, but much more straightforward to use, and of course, it's free :)The PMDG 737's look a fabulous piece of work, but as I haven't got my head around the PSS Airbus FMC, I'm not sure how I'd fare with the 737 equivalent in the PMDG version, so for now I content myself with the lovely FFX model and a great panel from Targan UNUTMAZ.So, in a nutshell, it seems that whilst freeware can provide excellent levels of detail and realism, payware often takes it further, or covers areas not covered by any freeware releases. Of course, we've all encountered some offerings both free and pay, that I think my cats could have made a better fist of, but with the freeware at least you've lost nothing! Do the research, and the payware selected should be good. But, both have a perfectly valid place in this hobby, and neither should be scorned, and if some folks want to get excited because the renowned 'Jim Spriggs' has released another fine add-on, then let them...that's fine, not problem, it spreads the word!!OK...sorry if that lot came out as a bit of a rant, and went on a bit, but I do get P'd-off when blinkered people start lashing out in forums and start a flame-war where there souldn't be any!

Hi, yarrvelling. I hate to disappoint you, or be a bearer of bad news, but all of things that you mentioned, have nothing to do with flight.I still contend that no pay ware available to date, at least that I know of, that adds anything to positive transfer to enhance / teach the actual flying skills required, and sufficient to make someone into a real pilot. If I missed something please let me know. You are demonstrating my point perfectly, it

Avcomware,Uh??? Are you reading the same threads that I am? I don't believe anyone has said that any add-on will turn you into a "real" pilot? After all it's a $40.00 sim. If your criteria for an "acceptable" payware add-on is that it teaches you to be a real pilot, then you've got a long wait on your hands. Anyway, I see (I think??) what your agenda is now. See ya

>Hi, yarrvelling.> I hate to disappoint you, or be a bearer of bad news, but all>of things that you mentioned, have nothing to do with flight.>I still contend that no pay ware available to date, at least>that I know of, that adds anything to positive transfer to>enhance / teach the actual flying skills required, and>sufficient to make someone into a real pilot. If I missed>something please let me know. yes,you missed something:NO-ONE alive on this earth(no,you won't either! ;-) ) will become a rw pilot from flying MSFS.to even suggest that makes me question your dedication to this GAME.>You are demonstrating my point>perfectly, it

Well said Tom!

Hi, Tom.I don't think I miss much, I fly on almost daily basis. I recommend you guys do the same, save your $30-40 you throw away on this elusive emersion and get some real flying done. The immersion factor between the free and $30 model is not worth the money, is what I am trying to tell you, but it's your money. TV>i think you are totally wrong there.i think a lot of people get just that thing YOU OBVIOUSLY miss:they feel themselves a pilot,flying their 737 or 767 or whatever for 1 hour or twenty hours,doing most of the things a real pilot would do,and they ENJOY themselves.that's good enough for me bud.after all,the barkeeper makes profit as well if i drink some beers and enjoy myself,and he doesn't spend as much time as those FSdevelopers.for that reason,i see no harm in people flying a simulated 737 with most of the bells and whistles...they're having fun,i'm having fun....and sorry for saying,but it seems you don't.too bad bud.

Hi, interesting discussion..."The immersion factor between the free and $30 model is not worth the money, is what I am trying to tell you, but it's your money."Yep. I don

Exactly....well said gents.Avcomware, No-one has ever said that by using FS9 (or earlier) will teach you to become a pilot. It has been claimed that it can be used in CONJUNCTION with flying lessons to assist student pilots, and maybe it can, but it is, and always will be, a GAME. Nothing more. A very realistic game, yes...it does teach many fundamentals of flight a whole raft of stuff that I knew nothing of until I started 'playing' it, but I don't feel that I could now hurl an Airbus around the skies in the same way that professional pilots do :) If it were that simple we'd all be lined up at our local airports waiting for the next available 'plane to fly off in!! LOL!!I think it can be called a 'sim' because it does simulate the experience of flight for us earth-bound wannabies, and also immerses us into a virtual world that runs alongside our own 'real' one....it's easy to get 'lost' in the virtual world created when you're sat holding at the head of a runway, awaiting take-off clearance, and listening to ATC talking to planes on the ground and in the air around you, whilst looking out over some scenery that is good enough to look pretty real, and looking at a decent panel and hearing the hum/whine of those engines not far away....and seeing those other aircraft moving around the airport, all trying to accomplish their own 'missions'. It all seems very convincing, and it takes one out of the humdrum world and opens a window on a new one, where YOU are the pilot, the star in your own little movie, and you feel like the pilot in charge of a jet full of expectant passengers, bound for wherever.....But thats all....it's a fantasy, albeit more realistic than say, Quake 3 or Unreal 2, but just like those games, it's still a fantasy. If it were so simple to train pilots, why d'you think it costs SO much to train pilots in the 'real' world'? Why isn't everyone you know a pilot? Don't expect to knocking at Delta's door on Monday saying you've got 3000 flying hours logged in a PMDG 737 and "Gimme a job". :)Get real....FS 2002/4 is a game, a very good, realistic game, a SIM...yes, but it only simulates within the limits of desktop PC capabilities. No payware or freeware addon will turn you into a fully qualified pilot, and nor do they purport to.I stand by my earlier post's statement that there is room for both as they can both bring something new to the sim for the user to enjoy, and enhance the fantasy. One may do it better than the other, that will vary...you pays your money, you make your choice.

Guess no one has come up with an "Angry Troll" banners yet. :D

>Hi, Tom.>I don't think I miss much, I fly on almost daily basis. I>recommend you guys do the same, save your $30-40 you throw>away on this elusive emersion and get some real flying done.>The immersion factor between the free and $30 model is not>worth the money, is what I am trying to tell you, but it's>your money. TV>well then,you is clearly missing my point:i can never become a pilot,not even a private pilot.do i want to?H### YEAH!but my health won't allow it.so,here i am,28,want to be a pilot,but at the same time i know i'll NEVER become one.and you call me simple because i "throw" away 40 bucks to atleast live my lifetime dream a little?gimme a break mate.it is really good for you that you ARE able to fly on an almost daily basis.i am too.in my HJG DC8.or in my CS 727.or in the 767 PIC.i can live my dream,i can use "real" procedures,i can use real charts,i can plan my flight,i can use ATC online....heck,i can do whatever it is that you do,but i'll have to do it virtually.open your mind(nonono...i said OPEN your mind...):i love it,and i'm really really thankful to both free AND payware designers,that just give my dream that little bit extra that makes it almost real.for that i can never thank them enough.on the other hand,i think you are quite arrogant....there are WAY more people who love the Aviation biz,then pilots,and it'll always be that way,because,and this is probably news for you:some people DON'T have the money,or DON'T have the health,or plain simply DON'T have what it takes to become a pilot.what some of these guys DO have is an enormous amount of fun,coming from the "$30-40 we throw away on this elusive emersion",as you blindly arrogant stated it(yes,i took that personally....i bet i'd be a better pilot as you are,as i CAN understand where i come from).once again:good for you you are a pilot(yes seriously),at least you'll know what went wrong when that 747 hits you because you are WAY up there.but i doubt you'll ever get what i'm trying to tell you here,so live on,and despise those that cannot do what they want to do,because of many different reasons.at least WE are having fun.regards.

>Ona side note - for some of us simmers, simming is one of the>only possible aviation related hobbies, may it be because of>our health or whatever reason. "Go out and get some real>flying done..." sounds pretty cynic considering the personal>faits of some of the friends I found on the net...exactly Uwe...it ticks me off...i've done EVERYTHING i could think of to get permission to make at least the ppl,but it won't happen,i've been grounded for life.then some bloke tells me NOT to invest 30 dollars on an addon that makes my simming more enjoyable,but instead get my ppl?....hey bud,if you can get me my ppl i'll gladly pay!geeez....oh,he has to pass the dragon guarding the treasure(or:the wife guarding the wallet ;-) )anyway,so it won't happen hehe.

LOL, this is quite a wild tangent.I've got lots of freeware and a few payware planes. Some of the freeware is fantastic. I have nothing but repsect for the people who do the work and provide it free to the community. However, very few (if any) of the freeware machines I've downloaded (and I think I have most of the best examples) are as polished, complete, and fully featured as the payware machines. Even the best freeware I find often has a few weak spots whether it be a weak or non-existant VC, the use of one of the defualt 2D panels (thus forcing me to go searching around for a suitable 2D panel to replace it), a performance issue, or some other thing. THats by no means meant to be a criticism. They are still awesome pieces of work. However, I expect more from the payware and I've found ftmp I get more. Generally speaking, the payware planes I have have virtually no weak point. I don't have to go looking around for a good 2D panel and modifying cfg files to get it to work, the VC will be clean and clear and almost fully functional, they are complete packages and are usually (at least the ones I've purchased) well optimized, and they usually include some nice documentation. I don't buy them becuase I think they are going to make me a real pilot while the freeware will not. I buy them becuase its been my experience that they are simply built to a higher standard than most freeware (as they should be since I'm paying for them). That certainly doesn't mean I don't appreciate the freeware ones. In fact, I'm blown away by the amount of work and the quality of the work some of the freeware stuff exemplifies...

Another reason why I try not to give a sh*t what the public thinks. I could care less about VC's and all that...I mean, I'm working on one or two, but they're not a priority for me. If people wanna be stuck up and assume anything without a VC isn't worth flying, hey, you're entitled to your opinion, and I have a middle finger ready for you.I make most of my planes for one sole purpose anyway: For general-purpose usage by VAs. This means:1.) Eye candy is pointless. It's designed to be used heavily by many users with different systems, simple to install and operate. Multiple models are a waste of time for this purpose.2.) Textures must be extremely simple. The aircraft will be painted in numerous paint schemes by fleet managers of a variety of airlines, meaning textures must be kept to a minimum and easy to paint.3.) VC's are useless. Everyone has different panel preferences and a lot of VA's offer different panels anyway. Plus, it adds to download size and complexity and removes flexibility. Better to add wing views which, unlike VC's, are nearly universally accepted as a plus.So my views are a little different. I leave the eye candy models designed to run on tip-top systems to other people. It's not the way I do it.

Hi, Tom.I am sorry to hear about your problem, write me a private Email message, if you want, and let me understand more about your situation, I may be able to help.I never said that anyone has to get their PPL to go flying, just go to your local FBO, get an Instructor, and fly. I've had people with serious handicaps, no legs, cannot hear etc. do the flying, and some got their PPL. In addition there are other types of flying / licenses that you can get that are less demanding, health wise. Again, it is not my intention to have anyone not enjoy flying, even if it is simulated, my intention is to point out that the same enjoyment can be gotten for free, and we all should appreciate that. Without them there would be no BBS no conversations like these, no exchange of knowledge and information. Someone is always subsidizing someone else, until they become self sufficient, then it's time to give back, not take more. Most of these pay ware guys used the freeware subsidizing, now some are turning against them, for no good reason. TV>but my health won't allow it.so,here i am,28,want to be a pilot,but at the same time i know i'll NEVER become one.and you call me simple because i "throw" away 40 bucks to atleast live my lifetime dream a little?gimme a break mate.