Well I'll describe the type of "stability" I am speaking of that I find more often than not I get on an xplane aircraft.Start the takeoff roll-all is good-then about 30 knts or so before liftoff the plane starts going squirly on the runway. Say it heads left a little -give it a little rudder correction and it immediately starts heading right in a major over correction-wings dipping. Brake sounds screaming away now the gyrations become greater and greater till it is gonna be a crash-luckily right about there liftoff speed is attained. Tracking the centerline?-just try to keep it on the runway! Gently pull on the yoke and the nose abruptly points up and the stall warning is screaming-gently point the nose down and it overcorrects-starting a series of really bad occillations. Working with it like a test pilot after 30 seconds all can be in control. Now climbing to level flight-all axis's are way too fast-roll universally being the worst. In level flight-roll to a 45 degree bank (which is way too fast) and then gently roll to a 45 degree bank the other direction-the plane goes out of control. If lucky, like a spin if you have enough altitude you may be able to recover.This is in calm wind. Put some real weather in-and I find most of the time I am like a test pilot trying to keep the plane from crashing in all realms of flight rather than enjoying simulating flying.I have been thru all the joystick stuff and nothing makes a difference. It seems universally-the roll axis is way too fast and over sensitive, and the pitch and yaw can be likewise. This is the primary reason I have been trying xplane and shelving it for years...Then the Carenada f33 comes along. Give it power on the takeoff-it pulls a little to the left-corrected with rudder-just about perfect-rudder inputs are great on the roll, a gentle tug and it stays on the runway with a gently rising nose and then breaks ground in 1-2 seconds, give it a little trim for Vy and it nicely stabalizes-get to level flight which can be trimmed (other than a trim bug which I have mentioned to Carenado that requires you down trim it about ever 4 seconds until you run out of trim), put it in a 45 degree bank to the left and right-the roll rate is perfect-the aircraft is stable....and it just feels and performs just like a Bo. (and yes bo's are less stable than a 172 or a Piper). No joystick adjustments required-flies great just like it is...and flys like a Bo-in other words a dream.To put it simply-most xplane aircaft I find extremely unenjoyable to simulate in-and instead of practicing rw flying techinique I spend most of the time trying to keep the aircaft from disaster in almost every flight realm. If the f33 had not come along xplane 10 would be collecting dust as all previous versions had-now it is my sim of choice.Here is an early video I took of the f33 in pattern during the first beta I showing what I describe above-and what keeps me with xplane. Imho we need more aircraft like this...and if "cheating" is what makes it fly like this then I think more aircraft need to cheat.

@GeofA,Geof you should try Leading Edge Simulations Beechcraft Duchess. It too is a great flying twin engine. Formerly I wasn't in to twins, as I don't have a twin engine rating, SEL only and no high performance either. I bought the Duchess and now I fly it nearly exclusively. well that and the F33A. The duchess has nearly neutral stability and Goran did not use artificial stability either. Its one of the few planes I have found that exhibits 0000, pitch and 0000, yaw in the X-Plane pitch and yaw stability derivatives. even the F33a will show a small derivitive i believe about .-0003 if I remember right. The Duchess in a 20 to 30 degree bank will hold that bank throughout a standard turn in either direction. Pitch up then drop the yoke and the plane will return to level flight in about 3 or so small oscillations. Also it is ver easy to trim to handsoff level flight, although i did modify my copy a bit by changing the trim speed to about 20 seconds from one extreme to another. It makes it trim slower, but with my CH Flight Sim Yoke, I can get much finer pitch trim control..All in all, I find this plane to be of superior quality, and can recommend it highly if you don't already have it.

I have the dutchess-nice aircraft.

I have the Duchess - it's a lovely lovely model, but it's soo sloooow when you're flying the airways. I have become used to flying STARs at 210kts - in a piston prop aircraft it would be quicker to hire someone to build a new airport under the aircraft than to fly to the destination. That is the feeling, anyway. Also there's no DME, just the GPS distance-to-beacon function. However after reading this thread and making some tests, I really appreciate the neutral stability of its flight model. This is something I'd been fighting (and becoming infuriated by) in many X-Plane aircraft for years. Goran, be warned, the extradition team is on its way. Ve haf ways ov making you talk - how do ve get neutral or positive pitch stability in X-Plane?

Also there's no DME, just the GPS distance-to-beacon function.

Have a look on the far right of the panel. DME tied to NAV 1. :(

However after reading this thread and making some tests, I really appreciate the neutral stability of its flight model. This is something I'd been fighting (and becoming infuriated by) in many X-Plane aircraft for years. Goran, be warned, the extradition team is on its way. Ve haf ways ov making you talk - how do ve get neutral or positive pitch stability in X-Plane?

:PSome things are better kept to ones self. :(

The downside to not telling how to do it is having multiple people buying crap addon and ditching X-Plane because of the bad feeling they had flying the totally unstable plane. Hope you can make more addons for X-Plane since it appears you're one of the few able to create a GA like people expect an aircraft to fly.

AlecI can see your side of it, but to be completely honest, there is no "trade secret" to it. That has been my point in many discussions I have had in many forums about x plane.If developers just take the time to not take short cuts (I won't use the word "cheats" anymore) and actually study the intricacies of aviation, there wouldn't be a problem. There's nothing I can show them that they cannot learn themselves. I'll just be repeating what they can already find in any aviation engineering/airfoil/engine systems book.X Planes core flight model is VERY flexible. Especially if what I hear of X Plane 10 is true. The majority of new x plane users, who have just come from FSX, just have no idea of what it is capable of. They base their entire experience off a couple of default aircraft that took less than a couple of weeks to make.

Since I have no idea about making a plane for any simulator, I take your word there's no secret about this. I have stopped buying Carenado taking your word that the path they chosen isn't the correct one.I just bought an amazing Vans RV-7 for FSX, almost bought a A2A bird with Accu-Sim, the PMDG 737NGX is the best airliner I have ever flown. Now take X-Plane, There are the planes you made, which are models not very popular in real life I think, there are a couple of other planes that I have never seen before. You can't blame people flying the default airplanes, there's not that much option. Carenado may not know how to do right, but they chose which planes they will model next like a real pro, people buy because of that alone, who doesn't want a Bonanza, a Caravan, a King Air in their simulator?

Since I have no idea about making a plane for any simulator, I take your word there's no secret about this. I have stopped buying Carenado taking your word that the path they chosen isn't the correct one.

Please, I do not want to discourage anyone from buying any add on. When it comes to Carenado, particularly the F33, I would trust Geof's judgement. He absolutely loves it, and it is a plane he is very familiar with in the real world. If we all waited for the perfect aircraft, we'll be waiting a very long time!

I just bought an amazing Vans RV-7 for FSX, almost bought a A2A bird with Accu-Sim, the PMDG 737NGX is the best airliner I have ever flown. Now take X-Plane, There are the planes you made, which are models not very popular in real life I think, there are a couple of other planes that I have never seen before. You can't blame people flying the default airplanes, there's not that much option.

There is not much option because x plane's add on market is very young. Hi detailed mesh only became available with X Plane 8. That's when we were able to export models made in a 3D program as an obj8 format. Before that, it was just low poly, simple planemaker models using default and generic systems. Now we have many tools to use, but the problem is, it takes time to make something like a complex airliner. There is a 737 classic coming very soon, complete with custom systems and extremely accurate flight model. I chose the planes I did because I am very familiar with them. I could have chosen a Cessna 152, but I do not have many hours in that, so I didn't feel I could do a good job of it at the time. Keep in mind, this is when I was first starting out. So my resources were very limited and there were not many people willing to test my first project.Now, for my next few projects, i have many people testing and providing documents, diagrams and photos.

Carenado may not know how to do right, but they chose which planes they will model next like a real pro, people buy because of that alone, who doesn't want a Bonanza, a Caravan, a King Air in their simulator?

There are many planes out there to make. It just depends on which ones a developer really wants to model. Keep in mind, we sit here from early hours of the morning to very late hours at night. I've been known to start work on my projects at 7 or 8am and work until 2 or 3 am with only a few breaks. If someone is going to work that many hours, almost every day, they have to enjoy what they're doing.

Please, I do not want to discourage anyone from buying any add on. When it comes to Carenado, particularly the F33, I would trust Geof's judgement. He absolutely loves it, and it is a plane he is very familiar with in the real world. If we all waited for the perfect aircraft, we'll be waiting a very long time!

Just in time! I was just going to hit the post button, to say the same thing. Afterall, Geofa owned a Beechcraft Debonair/Bonanza, as well as co-owning a twin Beech Baron. A friend of mine owns a Debonair, which I've flown in..............and I feel pretty good about the Carenado offering, too.

Hmmmm... Sorry, but once I know the facts, it's hard to go back, but I don't think anyone should stop buying their products for that, it's just a personal thing.GoranMYou're right, you should do what you like the most, that will result in the best work you can do.

Hey Alec-the facts are if you want to know what it is like to fly a f33 on a flat motionless computer screen there is no better rendition on a sim than the Carenado f33 for xplane.Those are the facts...

Alec please don't judge a developer by the way they get there programs to work. the whole concept of flight simulation is by its very nature artificial. Respect developers that take the long road, I certainly do, but by the same token don't short shrift someone because of their techniques. Flight modeling is like making sausage, it is best done, if you don't watch it being done. The only thing important in modeling aircraft flight, is, "does it work"? If it does, don't question how or why or even if, just fly the thing. You would be surprised at the programing tricks that are done in the simulators that are top of the line commercial simulators, such as the Level D, that United has in Denver Colo. As an aside, and a point of intrest they will sell time to anyone that wants to fly, there simulator, or they were a few years ago, in the mid 1990's you could book a session for around $300 US.

I have the Carenado Bonanza in my X-Plane. It's not like I was going to buy it and gave up the idea. I don't like Carenado since a long time ago, when they released airplanes with totally ridiculous FDE, and then when everybody complained, they just moved to do another aircraft, which amazingly everybody bought too, and started complain right after that, and that was the cycle. They started doing better airplanes recently, but it was only when Bernt Stolle started doing their FDE that their aircraft started being more than a pretty 3d model, and he did that because his favorite planes were beautifully done, but flying it had nothing to do with the experience he had in real life.So, I'm not going to stop buying addons for my simulators, but from Carenado I don't buy anything more, I didn't like them before, I gave it a shot, and I don't like them now. That's how I feel, I'd rather get my money to people that REALLY deserve, like the A2A team, the BayTower RV-7 team, the PMDG team, the FlightSimLabs team, people who beta test their products for months, if not years before releasing to public.

Have a look on the far right of the panel. DME tied to NAV 1.

Good grief, I'm a prat. I had confused the Duchess with one of the Carenado aircraft - I forget which one - which would have had an IFR panel except it had no DME at all. Apologies! Also, why the heck can't I edit my original post and strikeout my ignorant statement?