Question about Flaps

[g_precentralis 191]

Sure they are...If you have to maintain a relatively high approach speed on approach to fit in with traffic... full application of flaps (once below Vfe) is a great way to get the plane slowed up for your "over the fence" speed. You have to know your plane... what it can and can't do.And let's just take the example of a normal pattern in a Warrior II (since I am familiar with those). Abeam the numbers, set your approach power, one notch flaps and trim for 80kts. Turn to base and 2nd notch (25°) and 70kts. Turn to final, third notch (40°) and 63kts. Each notch of flaps slows the plane w/o a power change and sets you up for your final approach speed.

Please, read my post one more time, and quote it full, not just part, because in the way you did it, quote is out of context. As I said, flaps' main purpose is to increase lift, not to increase drag. Yes, you can drag with flaps, but you should really know what you are doing, and to follow procedure. Companies usually do not like when you exceed Vfe on their aircrafts; you have to report that, maintenance workers have to make a close look... It could be a very expensive mistake.

[LHookins 3,118]

Ozzie is a good guy, and very knowledgable in many areas, but tact is not his strong suit. That's twice he's cheesed someone off in the last day or two, and mostly the same way.Unfortunately, that kind of thing can have a chilling effect on a forum. People who might normally post will decide it's not worth it if someone's gonna tear them up, whether deserved or not. Bill, this is the main reason I decided not to write that essay on how to fly the Icon in a real world manner.Hook

[Great Ozzie 101]

Companies usually do not like when you exceed Vfe on their aircrafts; you have to report that, maintenance workers have to make a close look... It could be a very expensive mistake.

Somewhat superfluous, don't you think, since we both said not to exceed Vfe? I also think I said, "know your aircraft".Since I hold an A&P... I reckon I'd have to report it... to myself. :rofl: ...

As I said, flaps' main purpose is to increase lift, not to increase drag.

Ok, I know what I believe from what I was taught thru 4 years of Flight and Maintenance courses... and the hours I have spent learning and teaching and learning from teaching. And I know what authors like Wolfgang Langewiesche have stated... And what the FAA says "the main purpose" is...So let's just agree to disagree here... with the notable exception of limiting flaps to around 20° or less... then I can buy into your statement. :friends:But just how many planes do you see with just 15 or 20° of flaps? :unknw:As a side note... I seem to remember someone from PMDG talking about maintaining level flight in the JS4100 and applying flaps (when appropriate) to slow up the aircraft. Whatever the "main" purpose is I know what they do. :pardon:

Unfortunately, that kind of thing can have a chilling effect on a forum. People who might normally post will decide it's not worth it if someone's gonna tear them up

I am sorry you see it that way Larry... not my intent at all.But there is a part of me that says, "yes... if we are going to discuss these topics, then let's be accurate... precise... careful with our words... etc." Aviation is known for being terribly unforgiving... maybe why my perspective comes across as "less than tactful"... I don't know how to be more tactful. When I am wrong, I am wrong and will readily admit it. I personally have been ripped here at AVSIM (or at least felt that way and half felt I deserved it for being sloppy). Motivated me to study harder... not to let make this forum a display of my emotions. But I do not see what others have done to me as justification for doing it myself.Maybe you would PM me where I was "tearing someone up". Particularly this "undeserved" stuff... if someone writes inaccuratey, I should not say anything to the contrary because I may "hurt their feelings"?Btw thanks for the other nice stuff you said... we all have great things to contribute or I wouldn't spend time reading posts and gleaning what I can learn from them.Edit:Also Larry thanks for what you said... I will rethink how I am saying "things"... maybe I need less "me" in my posts.

[Oracle427 45]

More lift = more dragMore drag != more lift

[LAdamson 240]

The RV does pitch down with flaps. The 6A allows 110 mph for 20 degrees of flaps, and 100 mph for 40. I've used just half flaps (20 degrees) much of the time.You do feel & see deceleration, when the flaps go down.L.Adamsonedit: a few more facts:Since the RV has the power, it's not a problem to do a go-around with full flaps. It won't sink you due to excessive drag like a typical Cessna or Piper. There are some RV pilots who like too see just how short of ground roll they can take off with. They do it with full flaps.

[LHookins 3,118]

Ozzie, you are a gentleman and a scholar.I've never seen you actually "tear someone up". And I do admire your knowledge. How to correct someone... well... if you had a student on short final who hadn't lowered the landing gear, how would you handle it? Probably want him to keep calm. Hook

[Great Ozzie 101]

Ozzie, you are a gentleman and a scholar.

Thanks... well... I'll try live up to that. Seriously. I do believe that is "the goal".

How to correct someone... well... if you had a student on short final who hadn't lowered the landing gear, how would you handle it?

I'll tell you a funny story you reminded me of...Student... short final... and I said, "Go Around"."Why?""Just do it." :LMAO:If looks could kill I would not be here this day... as she was so hot with my response!Well, of course once we flew out of the pattern I explained why and what my purpose was. My students became my friends... haven't seen her for a few years now, but whenever I would visit with my kids to her family, invariably things like that would come up and be laughed about (along with anything else we could find humour in).As to your question... it would be a simple, "GUMPS check done right?" Which normally is done several times before getting to short final.But you are quite right... Emotion needs to be checked in with un-needed baggage. Part of the I'M SAFE mnemonic.-Rob

[LHookins 3,118]

I think "Go around" was appropriate. The reason doesn't even matter, maybe the instructor just wants the student to demonstrate proper technique for it. That doesn't mean I don't get upset when FSX ATC tells me to go around... I may land anyway if I see that it's clear. Wouldn't do THAT in real life. :DHook

[Great Ozzie 101]

I think "Go around" was appropriate.

Well it was my reply to her "why?" that ticked her off. :Big Grin:

Wouldn't do THAT in real life. :D

Good cause you don't want to find out what could happen. Personal experience there but a story better left untold. :Secret:

[dburne 2]

That doesn't mean I don't get upset when FSX ATC tells me to go around... I may land anyway if I see that it's clear. Wouldn't do THAT in real life. :D

LOL, heck in FSX I have even had another plane overtake me from just above me, as I am on final in my default 737. I had already been giving the " clear to land runway x" from atc, then the dang plane just came in right above me and proceeded to drop out of the sky- like ai craft are know to do in FSX - and proceed to land. I promptly get the " go around" command from atc, I mumble something I cannot type here - and proceed to fly over the plane that just landed, and landed just in front of it - HA!

[HughesMDflyer4 470]

Also, if you have or get the Maule, use the checklists the first few times becuase the Maule has a -7 degree flap position that is used (in addition to others).

Been wondering...what is the purpose of the negative flap position?

[Great Ozzie 101]

Been wondering...what is the purpose of the negative flap position?

http://www.maulepilo...3ef49148f35068eI never came across "negative flaps" until the FSX DG808S glider.From the FAA Glider Flying Handbook:"Negative flap is used at high speeds where wing lift reduction is desired to reduce drag. When the flaps are extended in an upward direction, or negative setting, the camber of the wing is reduced, resulting in a reduction of lift produced by the wing at a fixed angle of attack and airspeed."Wiki has what I think a great definition:"At higher speeds a negative flap setting is used to reduce the nose-down pitching moment. This reduces the balancing load required on the horizontal stabilizer, which in turn reduces the trim drag associated with keeping the glider in longitudinal trim. Negative flap may also be used during the initial stage of an aerotow launch and at the end of the landing run in order to maintain better control by the ailerons."

[HawkDsl 50]

"Go around" has many funny RW stories you can google. Fable or not, my fav was when a low hr pilot was on final, but there was an AC still on the runway... So tower gave him the go around. He stayed right on final, and the tower again told him to go around... He replied "I will.." and touched down soft as a feather... when he got close to the AC still on the runway... he went around it, and headed for the next taxi way.Thats usually when tower gives you the dreaded "Phone Number".On Topic: Indeed flaps can help slow you down, and is right in line with stabilizing for landing... I think what the poster was worried about was using flaps like an air brake. Of course flaps are not air brakes, but if you've been using them like that... as the young kids say.. "Your Doing It Wrong!!"

[g_precentralis 191]

Ok, I know what I believe from what I was taught thru 4 years of Flight and Maintenance courses... and the hours I have spent learning and teaching and learning from teaching. And I know what authors like Wolfgang Langewiesche have stated... And what the FAA says "the main purpose" is...So let's just agree to disagree here... with the notable exception of limiting flaps to around 20° or less... then I can buy into your statement.But just how many planes do you see with just 15 or 20° of flaps?As a side note... I seem to remember someone from PMDG talking about maintaining level flight in the JS4100 and applying flaps (when appropriate) to slow up the aircraft. Whatever the "main" purpose is I know what they do.

Fair enough.I agree you can use flaps to achieve better performance in some situations (steep glide for example); you can use flaps in high speed apps to actually drag, but, according to SOPs Im looking right now, these are not standard procedures (at least not for most aircrafts). I never flied Warrior II so I do not know proper techniques.

[corinoco 22]

Been wondering...what is the purpose of the negative flap position?

The Great Ozzie gave a good description of the use of negative or 'reflex' flap settings.The WIki & FAA describe what I used to term 'de-loading' on the wing - wings are designed to work at a certain wing loading - weight / area, and overloading can cause all sorts of ill effects. Overloading doesn't necessarily mean actual mass on the aircraft; it can also mean airspeed and g-forces applied to the wing. Using negative flaps can reduce 'apparent' wing loading by disrupting the lift produced by the wing without increasing drag. You won't be able to take-off in an overloaded state, but you can avoid a condition known as high-speed or high-g stall, which occurs when airflow detaches from the wing even though you are way above stall speed. Most modern fighters have fly-by-wire systems that automatically adjust wing camber to the same result.I used to use it a lot for hand-launch RC gliders - I would put -5% reflex in the flaperons (combination flaps / ailerons) for launch when I wanted the glider to follow a ballistic path with minimal drag, and also to not pitch up due to speed above the 'cruise' airspeed of the glider. This meant I could launch without having to try to control the elevator (and hence the pitch) and could thus throw much harder. When the glider's speed dropped at the top of it's arc, I would switch the flaps back to 0% as the glider reached cruise speed.