I find it somewhat uninspiring to make a IFR flightplan and load it.Thats because then you are told exactly what to do by ATC. And what they tell you to do often divert significantly from your flightplan.Another annoying thing is that when you get slightly of course you are told to make turn that makes you of course on the other resulting in zick zack course.I fly the realair Cessna in FS9 and have tried both FS own flightplanner and FSNavigator.Is this like the real thing? You don't really navigate but just follow instructions from ATC.I feel like no own decisions and navigation thus no challange and no fun.

Are you using FS9's flight planner and FS9's ATC?I created my own flight plan and FS9's ATC just let me fly it. The only thing I get is just the occasional handoffs.

>Are you using FS9's flight planner and FS9's ATC?>Yes FS9 ATC but lately FSNavigator flightplanner. The ATC vectors me away from the created flightplan. Especially near the destination airport. The last time it even changed the landing runway (there was no wind).

Hmmm...not sure about that one. You may want to e-mail the author and find out. Sorry.

Hello Ifri:I have waited to see some other replies as I am not sure that I am addressing your post exactly. If this does not apply just ignore me, but here goes an old CFI's try:Real world, and I am sure in the interest of reality with Flightsim, it is quite common that you will be diverted from your flightplan somewhat, particularlly as you near your destination. I would suggest that if you are not implementing them, that you use SID and STAR standards in your flight plans where they are applicable. However, even then you will most likely not complete your plan exactly as filed as you near your destination. you will notice on most STAR arrivals that at some point on the plate, that instructions will tell you that ATC vectoring will commence prior to, or immediately after arriving at some intersection, VOR or location. ATC will be aware of conditions, traffic and other considerations of which the pilot has no knowledge (including the controllers personal preferences). If you are going into a high density area in light aircraft the diversions are even more realistic.I originate almost all of my flightplans useing FSNAV, and I delete everything after the cardinal destination intersection mentioned above in the STARs except the destination airport itself. There may be an exception somewhere, but this has worked flawlessly for me for quite some time.Loss of communications and/or declaring an emergency would be the only exception of which I know. If that happens, stick to your flight plan to the letter and ATC will clear the way for you. (Although real world you may have a mess of paper work to fill out, and questions to answer to the FAA and a bunch of irate fellow pilots).I would also suggest that you try VatSim if you have not already. If you are not already with VatSim, stick with it until you get it mastered before you get too frustrated with a new toy. I would recommend one VatSim flight every day until it becomes somewhat natural. In fact, it may become a little boreing at that point (Talk PRIVATELY with some other aircraft and it sure adds life to long flights for both you and most other pilots). After mastering VatSim, then snuff it if it and do your own thing if it is not to your likeing.Hope this helps a little bit and happy flying:RTH

>I have waited to see some other replies as I am not sure that>I am addressing your post exactly. If this does not apply just>Yes you do indeed give good information>Real world, and I am sure in the interest of reality with>Flightsim, it is quite common that you will be diverted from>your flightplan somewhat, particularlly as you near your>destination. >So it's just like the real thing when not followung my filed plan.But I think FS is somewhat flawed. For example it is very common that ATC tells me repeatly to turn and switch between two headings.I see no point with that.Also in case there is SIMchart for my destination ATC directions differs significantly from the given procedures.And I can't feel but a loss of experience when you don't need instruments or charts, but just have to follow instructions.>I originate almost all of my flightplans useing FSNAV, and IMy latest flightplans has always been done with FSNav, but I expect to reach the 20 sessions limit soon. >Loss of communications and/or declaring an emergency would beAs far as I know you can't declare in emergency in FS.>I would also suggest that you try VatSim if you have not>already. If you are not already with VatSim, stick with itI havn't tried it or any other multiplayer.

The beauty of the Flight Sim is that you are under no obligation to file an IFR flight plan (nor in the real world US under FL18 for many flights). Get the enroute charts or SimCharts and plan the flight manually (like we used to do in the "good ol' days:-)) and go VFR. You can use the VOR's for navigation or the GPS and when reaching the destination, you can still call the tower for approach and landing clearance. Puts a lot more fun into a mundane flight.Larry S.

Ifri:The multiple turns are for ATC traffic and identification purposes, but I somewhat agree with you that FlightSim gets carried away with it along with a few other things.Here again, if you in fact are useing departure and arrival charts, I would highly recommend taking a crack at VatSim. I have my favorite flights in a catalog arrangements in loose leaf notebooks and saved in FS, FSNAV, and Squawkbox (Between all SimFlyer airports plus a few more). VatSim does a pretty good job in following the data on those plates (Better than I do at times I regret to say).I hardly ever use FS9's ATC any more so it looks like you are correct. I would have sworn that declaring an ememergency was an option, but I did not see it in my hasty peek just before this reply. Mixed up with ProPilot or something else in my memory bank I guess. (This is not to bad mouth Mr. Gate's ATC. It was a giant step for MSFS IMHO.)VatSim is like pretty much everything else. One is pretty apprehensive in the beginning, but it is just one more tool (good one in my opinion).Concerning VFR as someone has mentioned, by all means make flights in that way just for fun. (Chasing cows, racing trains etc. with a J3 for example). With any flight that has any complexity though, real world included it is always a good idea to file a VFR flight plan and have flight following. You can even do this locally while shooting touch and goes.Wishing you the best in carving out your own spot where you enjoy being a bird the most.Happy flying:RTH

Larry:Your suggestion is fine, however, it only works if the weather is VFR. The arrival or departure airport will deny permission to take off or land if the weather is IFR. FS ATC takes control about 60-80 miles from the destination airport and vectors you in. It has always been a complaint that this is too soon. ifri noted that he flies a Cessna. I am guessing that they are relatively short flights and that 60-80 miles out is relatively soon after take off. If this is the case you never really get on your flight plan. This is true whether you use the FS9 or FSNavigator flight planner. Oncde they are loaded into FS, ATC operates the same. --Tom________http://www.reality-xp.com/community/nr/rsc/rxp-higher.jpg------------SYSTEM SPECIFICATIONS------------ Dell Pentium 4 at 3.2GHz with 800MHz FSB 1GB Dual Channel DDR SDRAM at 400MHz 128MB DDR ATI RADEON 9800 Pro 21 inch P1130 FD Trinitron CRT Monitor 120GB Ultra ATA/100 Hard Drive Sound Blaster Audigy 2 with DVD Audio WindowsXP Home Edition with Microsoft Plus!

Good point Tom:However, in such a case if it is an IFR flight plan and a STAR is available which intersects near your departure point, I would suggest just making a portion of the STAR the flight plan with no other entries. I realize that FS may not be compatible with this, but FSNAV sure is. Most of the STARs (and SIDs) are in the FSNAV Database. In fact, they carry the star a little farther than is necessary if one is useing ATC from any source. As I stated in my earlier reply, I delete all the fixes between the destination airport and the cardinal vector point awaiting the announcement of the active runway.As an example, my home airport is KLWB in eastern West Virginia. For major heavy flights I often make Washington DC my hub and fly there from KLWB as a preliminary flight in a smaller plane. I file the Jasen STAR into DC from KLWB with a modified Beckley transition. (Beckley is really about 50 miles in the opposite direction from my departure point.) I always make a notation on my flight plan to this effect that I will intercept the STAR at the Dillin intersection which is my nearest waypoint on that STAR.Probably in MSFS, the same method would work well for a VFR flight as well whether it was labeled as a STAR or not.Works well in VatSim too as a preferred arrival.Frankly, thanks to VatSim, and in past days useing ProPilot in FS2002, I have forgotten just how cooporative FS9 ATC is, or is not relative to standard routing. I will crank up a few and see how far off they are, or hopefully how well they follow the standards. If the diversions start 80 miles out as you have mentioned, I agree that this is a sore point.Just a suggestion which has worked well for me.Happy flying:RTH

>Ifri:>>The multiple turns are for ATC traffic and identification>purposes, but I somewhat agree with you that FlightSim gets>carried away with it along with a few other things.>Why is that necessary when you have radar squawk senders.At least the latter is implemented in FS9 Cessnas.

>The beauty of the Flight Sim is that you are under no>obligation to file an IFR flight plan (nor in the real world>US under FL18 for many flights). Get the enroute charts or>SimCharts and plan the flight manually (like we used to do in>FL18 you mean 1800 feet? That is very low (but maybe not for a Cessna) below many altitudes you are supposed to descend to accordingto many SimCharts.But if you do this must you not still communicate with ATC to make sure no collisions in the air happens?

>compatible with this, but FSNAV sure is. Most of the STARs>(and SIDs) are in the FSNAV Database. In fact, they carry the>star a little farther than is necessary if one is useing ATCIs this STAR data in the FSNav the same sort of informationthat we find in the FS9 Simcharts? Can I access this data from inside FSNavigator? Will the STARs and SIDS automatically be implemented in a flightplan if I choose an airport with SID STARS?>Frankly, thanks to VatSim, and in past days useing ProPilot in>FS2002, I have forgotten just how cooporative FS9 ATC is, orProPilot in FS2002 what do you mean? Is not ProPilot a separate simulator? And what about ProPilot in FS2004?

Though I've not tested it thoroughly, I have found in FS9 that the zigzagging vectors given by ATC once they begin routing you toward final (from up to 100 miles away *good grief*) may well be due to the fact that FS9 ATC does not account for wind conditions blowing you off their desired track. They vector you back and forth to get you where they want you to be. I've found in many cases that making a heading correction for wind that allows me to track the heading they've assigned me keeps ATC much less demanding about my headings. However, I haven't verified this through extensive testing, and it is suspect to FKAIE (Frequent Kevin's An Idiot Error). ;-) Happy flying,Kevin

I'll agree with what RTH says - use VATSIM- it's much more satisfying than using FS ATC. I don't think I have flown once using FS ATC since I started online flying aroud 21 months ago .Visit the Vatsim website - sign up to Vatsim, download from their site all the software you need to fly online and then just do it. Yes -it will be a little nerveracking at first - what do you say , how do you say it etc. but after a while it'll come naturally.You can still do VFR flights if you want . IFR, Airways routes - in fact anything you can do in the real world.Dave/859922