I have never gotten seen it myself-but my understanding from other posts is to change the fs date to be not during a time of seasonal change-or apply the "fixes" that have been posted in other threads so you can.A suggestion if you get the ctd all the time is to use one of the video driver cleaners to get rid of old driver residue on your computer and then reinstall your driver. I had a problem not with fs, but with print shop pro not showing my document that only went away after doing this-it was a driver residue problem...http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

Personally if it were up to me, there should be only ONE person who buys 2k6 and they can report to the rest of us if it is worth buying. After that HUGE amount of support Microsoft gave us (VERY VERY sarcastic) we should not buy 2k6 until the bugs are out of it. It SEEMS they ignored everyones email and posts for support. Why should they just put out a bugged game and walk away with it? And the thing that gets me is we will all (incl myself probably) run out and buy 2k6. Why should they reap all the benefits and offer no support. Why no us show them that we won't take that crap anymore. It BS if you ask me

I guess the simple answer is that most don't feel like you do. If they did-the product would not/will not make it to another incarnation.http://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

Let me also add that we (or MS I should say) could make the sim near perfect (we have that capability now)...but it would never run on anyone's machines. FS is one great big balancing act between performance and WOW factor, and that's the big gist of it.Rest assured that we'll be reporting anything and everything we can in the next beta also. Believe it or not, MS wants us to do that. They actually do care about the product also. Keep in mind they probably have their own internal company politics going on as well. I'm not meaning to give them their inch, but maybe at least half of it. A little understanding goes a long way and definatley helps better when trying to get things done. :-)That's my 2 cents.

I try to stay out of these discussions, but you push me over the edge.Try to imagine how it feels to have done my best at testing, found zillions of things that I'm not allowed to inform you about, be restrained legally from defending myself from the specifics of your mindless accusation, and have to stand by and have you state absurd, rude, and completely unfair remarks about me and the rest of the team.How amazingly rude, inconsiderate and downright ignorant of you.And then you label a justly infuriated victim of your ignorance "arrogant".My heavensBob Bernstein

>Personally if it were up to me, there should be only ONE>person who buys 2k6 and they can report to the rest of us if>it is worth buying. After that HUGE amount of support>Microsoft gave us (VERY VERY sarcastic) we should not buy 2k6>until the bugs are out of it. It SEEMS they ignored everyones>email and posts for support. Why should they just put out a>bugged game and walk away with it? And the thing that gets me>is we will all (incl myself probably) run out and buy 2k6. Why>should they reap all the benefits and offer no support. Why no>us show them that we won't take that crap anymore. It BS if>you ask meHi,Just wanted to insert my opinion real quick. I think FS2004 could have been a lot worse. It could have had much more serious bugs in it at it's release than it does. If that were the case then perhaps MS would have made a patch. I am very glad that FS2004 is as functional and stable as it is out of the box. Most of the time I can run FS2004 for hours on end with no problem. And yes, Beta Testers are to be thanked for this as well as MS! :D I have gotten the occasional crash from 'atc.dll'. I've even seen a couple from 'msvcrt.dll'. But overall crashes are really pretty rare, and I have a lot of addons installed. I don't believe that I've ever had the Seasonal CTD happen to me, so far.However, I think it would be nice if MS were to support MSFS with a patch or two several months after it's release to fix a couple of issues that concern (the majority of)people the most. You know, fix a couple of the most glaring issues without them requiring it to be what they consider a 'showstopper'. I don't feel they would need to fix every little niggling item that is brought to light. Again, I just think it would be nice. Overall though, I think the value for the money I spent on FS2004 has been far and away worth every penny.Sure, I'm seeking perfection on earth like some kind of pervert :-lol , but I am very happy that FS2004 is as stable as it is and works as well as it does. And I realize that perfection on earth will never come.Cheers,Jim

Jim,Nothing wrong with seeking perfection :-)

>I just hope the beta testers do a better job then with FS2004>next time around catching small bugs and making it better then>ever.>>I can wait a while yet for this next sim however - cant>imagine doing heavy hardware upgrade again until I can at>least run the current one fluently.As IF we had control of what MS issues :-lol We report the bugs and make suggestions, it's up to MS to act on them.....Geez the nerve you have accusing US of the "bugs" and faults. :-mad http://fsgateway.com/frank/fs9paibeta.jpg

This WHOLE thread has me fired up.As a professional software tester, I know of all the trials and tribulations of testing software. I tested Close Combat 3, the Russian Front, and it was an ENORMOUS task. I was simply responsible for the maps. I had to verify that each each piece of Artwork was accurate to the data, so that if there was a door depicted, a Soldier could go in it, and Line of Fire could be achieved. I had to make sure that windows were accurate and that mountains were accurate so that someone could fire "through" a hill, but could fire down into a valley once they reached the ridge.I averaged 60 hours a week, and when we came down to "crunch time, that went to 80 hours a week. Many nights staying until 1 am or 2 am in the morning. So it really P*sses me off when some J*cka$$ comes into the forum, who doesn't know his butt from a hole in the ground and starts his little petty list of complaints.The entire Flight Simulator team numbers less than 100 people, and when I worked at Microsoft, the test department was roughly 10 to 20 people.Now take those numbers, lets look at ONE test case. Validate the loading of all the airports. 23,000 (plus or minus). If I was given a YEAR with NO DAYS OFF to test just the airports, I would still have to validate nearly 60 airports a day, or 6 airports a hour. Now add to that, seasons. Make sure each one loads in "spring, summer, winter and fall." I now just made my work load 24 airports an hour. And even testing EACH and EVERY airport for 4 seasons, I still would have missed the dreaded "seasonal" CTD. For that case, I would have had to test not only each season, but each transition. So now my work load is 48 airports an hour 365 days a year, 10 hours a day. Now that is just ONE data point. Of the THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of data points that require testing.I agree withe Geoff and the other beta testers. Before you guys start throwing stones, perhaps you should spend some time in the industry you criticize. Microsoft is not perfect, but they did a fine job with COF, and to offer it at less than what the charged for FS2000 Pro, is even more impressive.

>As IF we had control of what MS issues :-lol >We report the bugs and make suggestions, it's up to MS to act>on them.....Geez the nerve you have accusing US of the "bugs">and faults. :-madLOL, OK I dont know what the hell is wrong with you guys but you obviously totally and utterly are misunderstanding what I was saying, and blowing this whole thing out of proportion, but since I have to defend myself as well lets clear this up.I am not accusing you or anyone of beeing personally responsible for the bugs. If anything that would be accusing MS for not fixing something like the CTD IF it was reported.I was merely uttering dissapointment in those bugs (some serious, some not) that got through to the end user.If you all take that as some personal attack of your little club, that is certainly not intended nor my problem.All I said was I found it really strange that until this thread appeared I was under the impression that none of the testers had at all experienced the CTD - and thus not reported as example and then your all over me like a pack of wolves.Following that trail of thought, I also mentioned that I hope the next version will be even better and bugfree - now HOW da heck can that be a problem to anybody is beyond me.Right I am done explaining myself, think what you want and lets drop this subject please!

I'm sorry I was rough in my last post. I reread the thread, and your comments did indeed get blown out of proportion.As a tester, beta, or paid employee, we are continually under the gun. Developers hate us, because we find flaws in their perfect code. End users hate us because we didn't catch their pet bug. In many cases, it may have been caught, but was given a "won't fix" classification, and there you go.What most people fail to understand is the size of the task in testing a piece of sofware like Flight Sim. The amount of testing that must be done is mind bogling. And that doesn't take into account that flight sim must be compatible with many different versions of hardware and operating system.Nothing pushes someones buttons when a statement comes out like "how could they have not caught THAT?"And you aren't the only one. In April 2004 Computer Pilot, the reviewer reviewing Megascenery for New York makes a statement that says "Microsoft seems to have slightly toned down the area's detail in the current version....Then there is the matter of the GW Bridge which stands hideously half sunken in the Hudson River (I still can't fathom how that got through the beta testing process)"The reason he can't "fathom" it, is that it is not an issue with default mesh. I have removed all the mesh from my system, and the GW bridge is great. However, when third party mesh is installed, the bridge becomes sunken.So either this reviewer either forgot that he had third party mesh installed, or he expected Microsoft not only to test it's out of the box product, but to test it with third party mesh as well.So as you can see, it becomes a hot button topic, because when you say bugs are missed, or "how did that get through beta test", you basically infer the testers are incompetant, or the company is engaging in fraud.Neither is the case. The case is you have a very few people daunted with creating a very large and complex product, with a very little time to do it. The result, is a product that for the most part functions as designed, but for various reasons may have anomolies.

"I think most people will assume things slipped by in the process of a long testing period when it makes it through to gold release with any product. So no need to get arrogant about it all I think."Coming from a newbie to the forums, I'd accept that comment and arrogant would be too kind a word to describe my first response to you. But you aren't a newbie, and if you haven't seen the many comments made about the NDA's restrictions over the past eighteen months, the responsibility for the responses you receive falls on your shoulders. Personally, I think many post "loaded questions" of the type I often see in these threads because they want to sneak in under the radar and glean some type of inside info--either affirmation for a bug which bothers them, or some hint of the future. Those of us who had the privelege of helping test this product didn't participate because we were "better" than the rest of the community. We were here because I think Microsoft did their best to get a cross-section of the community at large. I hope you get a chance to do it come the next release--not because I think you should have to wear our shoes to understand the process--but simply because it is a great experience and you also get a chance to become part of a "Band of Brothers" (and sisters) who stay loyal to you forever. Bob demonstrated that in his reply, probably with a little more venom ( :) ) than you deserved. OTH, I'm feeling quite mellow today as I had to have some minor surgery this AM and they knocked me out for it. Years ago, that would have meant an overnight visit to a hospital... Today, I was walking around only moments after the i.v. wore off, and now I'm resting quite well at home and browsing the forum, and trying to feel "normal". But I can't find where my wife hid my car keys!Of course when I march back into the office next week, I'll probably wish I were under surgery again, there will be so much to do :)

Hard to imagine you would claim:<>When you WROTE: <>pretty silly to deny what you actually wrote in the same thread. Copy and paste renders your comeback nearly as absurd as your original statement.

Well guys, I am glad we got that spat out of the way. That stuff can almost throw one's day completely off, wich is why I hardly ever take part in these kinds of heated discussions :)I guess when it boils down to it, all the frustrations comes from just loving this simulator (too?) much so when things dont work as they should, well naturally people get frustrated.Probably shouldnt visit the forums or a keyboard when that happens! lol :DWatthomas777, thanks for the insight brought in your post, it was a rough ride but still interesting and informative ;)John, I know you from alot of previous posts and know you are always helpful to these forums, as such I was quite surprised at ur response.Sorry to hear about the surgery - I wish you all the best :)Oh, and why do you need a car key for anyway - you have a flightsim to tend to! Be glad the wife didnt hide THAT one lolP.S. Do not worry - I wont be among those bugging you all with how the next sim will be and all that - I might be thick sometimes but I do have my limitations :DCheers guys

MicroSoft is NOT the victim here. While I understand the "brotherhood" that has developed between the beta testers and Microsoft/development team, it just seems to me that most Beta testers are a bit too defensive of Microsoft. For example, a previous post said that there's less than 100 members on the development team. You'd think that a Multi BILLION dollar company can afford a few more people if they think its necessary. But for me, the big problem is not with the shifting winds, nor the CTDs. My problem is that with every single game I have on my PC, each and every one of them has been issued patches. EVERY SINGLE ONE. Some of them issued a patch just to prevent people from cheating in an online mode. Given Microsoft's philosophy, releasing a patch to stop a few idiots from cheating when playing online is really not such a priority. But I can even ignore the "no patches" philosophy. What really bakes my noodles is the complete and absolute silence by Microsoft when it comes to admission of bugs. FS has an official website. Press releases can be made available on that site. "We have received numerous complaints about the CTDs that some users are experiencing...bla bla bla....will be rectified in the next version...bla bla bla" What on earth is wrong with a simple statement like that? Sure, people will be a bit annoyed that there isn't gonna be a patch, but since most people will buy the next version of FS anyway, I think everyone will be happy that, at least, Microsoft has acknowledged the presence of the bug.Its the silence that has a lot of people up in arms. A few simple statemens, admissions, acknowledgements would go a long way into calming some nerves here.And one more thing. Don't assume that if you find a bug in this version of FS, that it is going to be fixed in the next version. As a matter of fact, don't assume that the CTDs will disappear in FS2006. Like I said before, the winds aloft problem didn't magically appear in FS9. It was also present in FS2002. Most people accepted the fix that FSUIPC presented with the expectation that it wouldn't be a problem in FS9.......Guess what.....ITS STILL HERE!!!!The timezone problems .....they were present in earlier versions too. I'm sure most also believed that they would be fixed for FS9. Guess what.....ITS STILL HERE!!! And these are just a couple of examples.So my advice to those of you that are getting seasonal CTDs in FS9....cross your fingers from now. Because when you buy FS2006, and you're flying at a time when the seasons are changing....you just may end up staring at your windows desktop again.......there's no guarantee that this bug will be fixed by Microsoft. Every day I fly FS, I praise the FS development team for their work, as well as the beta testers. But I cannot praise Microsoft for their aloof attitude and their silence. They have been silent throught FS2002 and some bugs that were present there are still present here. A few public statements on their official site is all that's needed. Note, I refer to Microsoft, because I'm sure that the developers would like make those statements but they work for someone.....and if its that person's policy to ignore his customers, then the developers hands are tied just the same. Microsoft is not the victim here....we the customers are.