This is probably a dumb question. I've been flight simming for years but only recently got into flying small GA aircraft. What is a typical altitude flown for VFR in a single or twin aircraft in distances of less than 300 miles? And yes I do understand that you would have to stay below cloud cover or it wouldn't be visual. :-lol Will

Bump... 13 views and no answer yet.Will

It depends on alot of things, aircraft, wind, weather, terrain, etc. You do not have to stay below clouds, you can fly above anything but a broken or overcast layer.For flying in the US, this link will cover basic VFR weather and clound clearance in different airspaces:http://www.faa.gov/aim/Chap3/aim0301.htmlAs for performance, if your flying non turbocharged aircraft, it's usually not worth flying above 10,000 ft. unless you have to fly over some terrain or there's a really nice tailwind up there.

I like to fly my GA's in FS at 2500 - 5500 feet AGL. But then I typically handfly and sightsee/navigate using the slower ones like the PA28, PA23, C172, DA20 Katana etc.. If I want to fly longer, about 10,500 feet is a good altitude but it depends on many things. Aircraft like the Mooney and the turbucharged C177 RG (Flight1/DF) are faster up in the flight levels, but remember to bring oxygen. Though in FS, it is not recommended that you strap anything to your face :)Sometimes it's a good idea to fly lower or sometimes higher to avoid airspace. This seems to be especially true in England where I often end up flying only at only a couple of thousand feet if I want to fly realistically. Also it's important to remember to fly at the correct altitude for your heading - even+500 for west, odd+500 for east. It seems like this is one rule AI aircraft actually obey and you get fewer near-misses if you do too.

Good advice from the other two replies before mine.Pilots fly low level at 2-3000 feet because they think they are saving time by avoiding climbing.On many occasions flying at FL110 or FL120 I hear fast sophisticated twins like Cessna 401s battling along in the grime down at 3000 to 4000 feet. Why?Higher up you get better TAS, better Nav and Radio reception, often better visibility, better economy, more airspace below to sort out problems, less chance of hitting other small GA aircraft and often above the low visibility and scud clouds below.On a double trip to a location 150 nm away I did the morning flights at 3000 feet both ways and the afternoon flights at 11000 and 12000 feet.The surprising fact in this turbocharged twin was that the afternoon flights with a climb to 12000 odd feet beat the low level flights by 7 minutes.Some VFR pilots are not easy flying high and only seem comfortable when close to and in solid contact with the ground ;-(If you are flying normally aspirated or in a slow climber then yes staggering up to high levels doesnt make sense.If your aircraft can maintain around 1000 fpm then climbing may make more sense.You need to take into consideration using oxygen. Here American citizens have better lungs than their European counterparts.The FAA consider 12500 feet asl as the limit for long periods allowing you to fly to 14000 feet without oxygen for 30 minutes.Above 14000 feet the pilot needs to be on oxygen all the time.His passengers do not have to be on oxygen until passing 15000 feet.Us unfit Europeans are not allowed above 10000 feet without oxygen and nor are the passengers.So I presume that We Europeans are not as genetically good as our friends in America ;-)If you are pure VFR you have to be sure that you can climb and descend VMC and are not forced higher and higher by a rising cloud top deck ahead of you.Lastly flying higher does carry one risk if you do enter clouds and that is icing.Even in spring and autumn you can find yourself in icing conditions where your aircraft needs ice protection to be able to operate at higher levels.Peterhttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/81828.jpg

Good post, Peter. I wasn't aware of the enhanced supplemental oxygen requirements in Europe, compared with the US. However, the FAA advises that night flights should not be attempted above 10,000' MSL without supplemental oxygen (although the legal limit still is 12,500' / 14,000' / 15,000' ). Even on good VFR in the daytime, I never go above 9,500' (but then again my C172SP has a service ceiling at just above 14,000'). Of course, 0'AGL here in around 5,000-6,000', in the Denver region. Bruce.

Jim, Jimmi and Peter. Thanks for your replies gentlemen I appreciate it. I also ran across a thing called VFR on top which was quite informing. I've been doing a lot of dawn and dusk flying between 4 and 6 thousand feet and the scenery has been awsome. Certainly a LOT different than it's looked like at 35000 feet. Will

Hi Will,"VFR-on-Top" is an IFR clearance. In VFR conditions and at VFR cruise altitudes, but all the pre-requisite rules for IFR (eg. you must advise when leaving altitudes, MEA's exist, etc...). This is not "VFR flight".Bruce.

BruceHow can VFR on top be an IFR clearance? VFR is visual flight rules IFR is Instrument flight rules. A visual Flight rule cannot be an IFR clearance.It is only below 3000 feet that you have to be visual with the ground to fly VFR flight rules, above 3000 feet and below 10000 feet you have to be 1000 feet verical seperation from cloud 1500 m horizontal from cloud in a minimum visibility of 5K.I stand to be corrected but flying VFR on top of an overcast is legal if you can climb and descend clear of cloud. Whether it is advisable to do so without instrument training is questionable unless you are really sure your destination is in the clear.Best Peter

Hi Peter!"I stand to be corrected but flying VFR on top of an overcast is legal if you can climb and descend clear of cloud".Yes-correct."How can VFR on top be an IFR clearance? VFR is visual flight rules IFR is Instrument flight rules. A visual Flight rule cannot be an IFR clearance."I think Bruce was speaking of "vfr on top" which in the US can be a type of ifr clearance- they may not do in your neck of the woods-I see that it isn't done in Canada for instance. From aopa:VFR-on-top is an IFR operation. The only thing that's different is that you, the pilot, operate solely in VFR conditions at a VFR cruising altitude of your choice. You can change VFR altitudes anytime you desire (subject to any ATC restrictions, of course) as long as you notify ATC of that change. You're also responsible for meeting VFR visibility and cloud clearance requirements as well as seeing and avoiding other airplanes. Because you're operating in VFR conditions, the controller won't apply IFR separation standards between you and other IFR airplanes. He or she will, however, continue to provide traffic advisories and safety alerts, and apply merging target procedures to other aircraft operating VFR-on-top. Despite operating in VFR conditions, nothing else changes in regards to operating IFR. You're still required to follow all the other IFR rules and regulations. If you're flying IFR in visual conditions and you can't get a desired IFR altitude because of traffic, you can request a "VFR-on-top" clearance. When ATC approves your request, you must comply with IFR and VFR regulations. You must fly the appropriate VFR altitude above the IFR minimum enroute altitude (MEA). You must remain in VFR conditions and meet the cloud separation and visibility requirements of the airspace you're flying in. You're also responsible for traffic avoidance. ATC may issue traffic advisories, but you must look for traffic just as you would on any VFR flight. At the same time, you must comply with all normal instrument flight rules including minimum IFR altitudes, position reporting, radio communications, course to be flown, and adherence to ATC clearances. You can change altitude if you desire, but you must report your intentions to ATC prior to making that change. VFR-on-top's requirement to fly at or above the minimum IFR altitude implies the route segment's published MEA or minimum obstruction clearance altitude (MOCA) if you're within 22 nautical miles of the navigation aid for that segment. If you're not on a published route, FAR 91.177 says the minimum IFR altitude is 2,000 feet above the highest obstacle within four nm in mountainous terrain and 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within four nm "in any other case." In many cases, ATC's minimum vectoring altitude (MVA) is the actual minimum IFR altitude. MVA is an unpublished altitude, which frequently is below the published MEA or MOCA. Let's say you're flying in visual conditions toward mountainous terrain, where the published MEA increases to 12,000 feet. You can request a VFR-on-top clearance so you can fly at a lower altitude such as 9,500 or 10,500 - providing the lower altitude is above the MVA and ATC can give you radar vectors at the lower altitude. Remember, radio navigation is not guaranteed if you're flying below the published minimum reception altitude (MRA). Don't confuse VFR-on-top with VFR-over-the-top, a term not found in the Aeronautical Information Manual's pilot/controller glossary. An airplane flying VFR above a solid cloud layer is operating VFR-over-the-top. Most pilots who fly single-engine airplanes avoid VFR-over-the-top flights unless the airplane is equipped for IFR, they are IFR current and proficient, and the ceiling and visibility below the clouds provide adequate forced-landing options. The versatility of VFR climbs/ descents and VFR-on-top clearances can create a false sense of security. VFR tools for IFR flight are just that - tools that may be used when conditions allow you to use them safely. This is an atc site that describes it from the controllers perspective:http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/ATC/Chp7/atc0703.htmlhttp://mywebpages.comcast.net/geofa/pages/rxp-pilot.jpg

GeofThanks for that insert as it clarifies a lot basically what I believed to be true.Yes there are differences in our part of the world but the general jist is the same.We fly IFR in airways at flight levels well below those in the USA. Sometimes a portion of the airway may have a base higher than we want in which case the airway controller will offer radar advisory service rather than radar control in controlled airspace.I have never had an IFR clearance to VFR on top in this side of the pond only IFR out of controlled airspace which as you know is flying the quadrantle rule.Should you require a non quadrantle level on top of cloud when in good VMC conditions ie should you need slightly higher to stay well clear of a solid overcast but not wishing to climb to the next quadrantel level it is quite in order to tell the radar unit that you are good VMC on top and flying VFR.There is often a confusion between VFR / IFR which are rules and VMC and IMC which are meteriological conditions.Fly safe RegardsPeter

Hi Peter,Does Geof's post answer your question?I must admit that, as someone currently only training for the IR, and not yet flown VFR-on-Top in flight instruction, my knowledge on this topic comes only from the IR written exam. The mode that I was referring to is a combination of VFR (which allows the pilot to ascend / descend to VFR altitudes and maintain own VFR seperation from traffic and clouds), and IFR meaning that one is still in the IFR system.Bruce.

BruceI am no expert :-) only a practical IFR pilot who gets lost and is like a duck out of water when flying VFR ;-)Also the interpretations and regulations vary in differing parts of the world.IFR for me is flight in controlled airspace under IFR. IFR for me can also be in uncontrolled airspace where the Pilot will make use of radar units who will offer radar advisory service when the controller takes resposibility for your separation from other traffic.In the UK most Radar advisory services are offered by military units or airports who are in your range and prepared to offer a radar advisory service.They may downgrade this service by offering radar information or flight information.You can cancel IFR in the descent to an uncontrolled airport without a published approach or you can fly IFR to touchdown in a controlled airport with a published approach.You can File VFR to go IFR at a certain point enroute on your flight plan or go IFR to change to VFR on a point enroute.A military jet can fly up through a gap in the clouds do a series of aerobatic manouvres over a solid cloud deck maybe looping at 20000 feet, all VFR and then descend down through another hole all pure VFR.All the bestPeter

Thanks Peter.I'm immensly enjoying the IR training- other than the partial panel, of course! Those darned mag. compass dip errors and the reversing effect of looking at the compass disk from behind are a pain at times :)Bruce.

>Higher up you get better TAS, better Nav and Radio reception,>often better visibility, better economy, more airspace below>to sort out problems, less chance of hitting other small GA>aircraft and often above the low visibility and scud clouds>below.>But what about hitting bigger planes instead.>On a double trip to a location 150 nm away I did the morning>flights at 3000 feet both ways and the afternoon flights at>11000 and 12000 feet.>>The surprising fact in this turbocharged twin was that the>afternoon flights with a climb to 12000 odd feet beat the low>level flights by 7 minutes.>>Some VFR pilots are not easy flying high and only seem>comfortable when close to and in solid contact with the ground>;-(>>If you are flying normally aspirated or in a slow climber then>yes staggering up to high levels doesnt make sense.>>If your aircraft can maintain around 1000 fpm then climbing>may make more sense.>>You need to take into consideration using oxygen. Here>American citizens have better lungs than their European>counterparts.From where did you get this information, it sounds strange, Why should it be so?>The FAA consider 12500 feet asl as the limit for long periods>allowing you to fly to 14000 feet without oxygen for 30>minutes.>Above 14000 feet the pilot needs to be on oxygen all the>time.>His passengers do not have to be on oxygen until passing 15000>feet.>How does it feel for a passafgerare just below 15000 without oxygen>Us unfit Europeans are not allowed above 10000 feet without>oxygen and nor are the passengers.>>So I presume that We Europeans are not as genetically good as>our friends in America ;-)>>If you are pure VFR you have to be sure that you can climb and>descend VMC and are not forced higher and higher by a rising>cloud top deck ahead of you.>>Lastly flying higher does carry one risk if you do enter>clouds and that is icing.>Even in spring and autumn you can find yourself in icing>conditions where your aircraft needs ice protection to be able>to operate at higher levels.>>Peter>>http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/81828.jpg>