No Spoiler

[Taipan 30]

 

In our virtual world if we hear that call out grab your spoiler lever and fully deploy.

 

Not sure about you guy's but with my soundpack on the MD11 I can hear and feel a rumble when my main gears are on the ground.

 

Yep and this will have to be my long term workaround as I'm no closer to reproducing the trigger that causes the no spoiler callout. If I can't reproduce it, I can't avoid it so I'll just deploy manually.

 

I raised a ticket with PMDG and they said there is no logic to trigger no spoiler in the systems, so it must be a bug or it doesn't like me having a hardware spoiler axis.

 

Yes I love this PMDG MD-11 as well, and it's not too far behind the NGX. The systems are good, the external model is a little behind but that doesn't bother me.

 

The VC isn't as flashy as the NGX but the MD-11 cockpit is a cleaner cockpit anyway so there's not so much we are missing because theres less there in the first place. Often we hardly even need to go to the overhead panel after startup and it's mostly an FMS based flight.

[FLEX1978 373]

I also use a spoiler axis,strange that they say there is no built in logic, are you sure you read it correctly? the PMDG does have a spoiler logic on landing, exactly the same as the real aircraft.

 

I posted over on the NGX forum yesterday, logic is pretty much the same across types.

 

Spoilers armed, throttles at idle, weight on at least one main gear. Most important thing for simmers is correct callibrated idle. Doing tech support I've dealt with the idle issue hundreds of times, most people think there setupis at idle since the N1/EPR looks low, a good null zone is the fastest way to fix it.

 

Regarding updating the MD11, sure it is 99% perfect, my main issue is runway condition does not affect braking distance like other addons (including NGX/777), the MD11 is well known for having a high Vapp, combine this with heavy rain and landing at a cago destination with a short runway and you have some serious planning to do. The MD11 as it is will stop without any issues,only way round it is to purchase the TSR software to make it realsitic.

 

I doubt it would cost PMDG that much to modify & add all functions through the MCDU NGX style, however they have there hands full.

 

Lets hope they pay this amazing add-on another visit some time in the future. I would happily pay for the modifications as an expansion pack.

[Taipan 30]

They said "nothing I can think of that would cause that to happen" [ie armed spoilers not deploying and triggering "no spoiler" callout]

 

Except they suspect MCE, however MCE shouldn't do anything unless I issue a voice command.

 

On the spoiler logic - are you saying there is cases where the aircraft will prevent spoiler deployment automatically after the wheels touch the ground?

 

On the Spoiler axis, I am able to fly from the IAF with the spoiler armed the whole way and the axis never trips it off. It's weird for it to prevent spoiler suddenly at landing. That's why I think the plane is doing something I don't understand yet. Something I can't find in the documentation, at least not the documentation for the PMDG aircraft.

[FLEX1978 373]

 

On the spoiler logic - are you saying there is cases where the aircraft will prevent spoiler deployment automatically after the wheels touch the ground?

 

Hey,

 

Yes, as I explained in my last post, real and most virtual aircraft follow correct spoiler deployment logic.

 

1.Thrust levers at idle (actual idle not just your throttle closed whilst not being callibrated correctly)

 

2. At least one main gear commpresed

 

3.tire speed above 62 knots and spoilers armed

 

4.If spoilers not armed then reverse thrust must be engaged.

 

If those conditions are not met you won't get autospoilers. This is why the Pilot not flying has to monitor this and react. I've also flown jump seat on the 767 and the spoilers failed to deploy due to a very smooth landing, another reason why trying to grease it is a bad idea.

 

Are you saying even after you deploy the reversers you stil don't get spoilers? if so it definietly sounds like your throttle calibration.

[3-2-1-Now 126]

To go around or not, is part SOP, part pilot judgement. Burning 5000 lbs of fuel is better than a smoking wreck and dead people.

 

One airline states that a bounce is to be first controlled by maintaining pitch that will preclude a tail strike, apply TOGA IMMEDIATELY (the aircraft may or may not hit the ground again), then just hold on until positive rate is confirmed, then executed a missed. Gear retraction is to be delayed until above 400 ft to confirm the aircraft is not going to sink again due to loss of airspeed.

 

This is how I do it in the sim, too.

 

To answer the question - you will certainly feel a bounce.

 

Checking the VS on approach should be part of "the scan". If you don't have a scan, fly the MS Cessna until you do. On approach it is:

 

* PITCH/ROLL (ATTITUDE)

* AIRSPEED

* PITCH/ROLL (ATTITUDE)

* VERTICAL RATE

* LOC/GS

* PITCH/ROLL (ATTITUDE)

* ALTITUDE

* GROUND SPEED

* PITCH/ROLL (ATTITUDE)

* VERTICAL RATE

* LOC/GS

 

etc..

 

If you analyzed my eye movements you'd probably find something else, but this is the general idea. Note how often pitch is referenced. Attitude is often neglected, but there is a reason the ADI has its own big display right in front of you (hint: it isn't to fill the gap between the FMA and altimeter).

 

PITCH + POWER = PERFORMANCE. Don't chase the LOC/GS needles - these are PERFORMANCE instruments, and trying to fly these directly will result in disaster.

 

If your GS is e.g. 160 kts, then your approx. rate of descent should be 800 ft/min. If the rate of descent exceeds 1000 ft/min, and you are below 1000 ft RA, consider the approach unstable and GO AROUND. Don't try and save it.

 

A final point with the MD-11 is DO NOT GET SLOW. I had wind-sheer on final into Keflavik last night passing 400 ft and so hit TOGA and went around, as my airspeed was 2 kts slow and my rate of descent increased to -1200 ft/min. There was no way I was going to prevent a hard landing/bounce doing anything else. The MD-11 is speed critical. Getting even slightly slow will seriously hurt lift.

 

Do *NOT* be afraid of going around. Too many pilots consider it poor piloting to go around, but there are too many "heros" who try and save a botched approach, and stuff it in. Better to face management because you went around than face death because you didn't.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

I'd say it's less trying to be the hero and more wanting to just land the thing and get it over with and hit the hotel, but it is what it is...

 

If you're attempting to explain the proper Control/Performance scan, remember that the Navigation Instruments are just that. The ADI is the Control (along with the turn and slip, and power setting as shown on the displays - but the MD11 is meant to be flown on AT, so it can be dropped). The Performance instruments would then be the rest of the six pack (in glass form), and are showing the performance of that attitude. The LOC/GS are still just navigation instruments, reflecting the result of the performance of that attitude (third tier).

 

This can be seen in the IFH 4-2 and 4-3:

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/instrument_flying_handbook/media/FAA-H-8083-15A%20-%20Chapter%2004%20Section%20I.pdf

 

As a pilot, you should develop your own scan. The IFH gives three examples on 4-11 and 4-12, but in the end, whatever scan gets you precise flying is acceptable. As Robin alluded to, the scan may change during flight phase, as certain indications become more important in different phases.

[WR269 367]

They said "nothing I can think of that would cause that to happen" [ie armed spoilers not deploying and triggering "no spoiler" callout]

 

Except they suspect MCE, however MCE shouldn't do anything unless I issue a voice command.

 

On the spoiler logic - are you saying there is cases where the aircraft will prevent spoiler deployment automatically after the wheels touch the ground?

 

On the Spoiler axis, I am able to fly from the IAF with the spoiler armed the whole way and the axis never trips it off. It's weird for it to prevent spoiler suddenly at landing. That's why I think the plane is doing something I don't understand yet. Something I can't find in the documentation, at least not the documentation for the PMDG aircraft.

 

Dan, it is a software bug, MCE does not rely on "triggers" to make things happen, if you sont activate a voice command, nothing happens.

 

It is a bug, because people who just use the MD11 without fs2crew or MCE have the issue.

 

How much of a bug is debatable, as real life airliners have this problem as well, and some people will credit PMDG with programming ultimate realism LOL!

[3-2-1-Now 126]

I've never had the spoiler fail to deploy if it is armed. I do not have it mapped to an axis however.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

[WR269 367]

This is from the smart cockpit

 

Spoilers - There are 5 panels in each wing....each panel is individually powered by one of the three hydraulic systems. When used in flight as a turning aid, the system will extend all 5 to a maximum of 60 degrees. When used as a speedbrake in flight, the system will extend to a maximum of 30 degrees. When used to slow down after landing, the system will extend all (provided all 3 HYD systems are running) to 60 degrees.On takeoff, if the spoilers are armed, they will automatically deploy on RTO. On landing, on main wheel touchdown the spoilers will extend to the 2/3 mark. on nose gear compression, the handle will move to ground extension and spoilers will fully deploy.

[19AB67 16]

If you're on the ground, you're on the ground. Stay there.

 

Hm, re. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufthansa_Flight_2904 sometimes a go around seems to be the better option.

But how could the pilots know that an embankment waits for them at the end of the runway?

[FLEX1978 373]

Hm, re. https://en.wikipedia...nsa_Flight_2904 sometimes a go around seems to be the better option.

But how could the pilots know that an embankment waits for them at the end of the runway?

 

If you look at all airline SOP's you will see that a Go-around even after touchdown is always an option 'except' if reversers have been deployed, at that point it will take too long to close the reversers and spool back to TOGA.

[3-2-1-Now 126]

at that point it will take too long to close the reversers and spool back to TOGA.

It's not the time that is the problem, but ensuring they are LOCKED. You are putting TOGA power against a reverser that MAY not have latched fully locked by the time the power comes on, and the force of the airflow can force the reverse OPEN again, and now you have TOGA thrust against a thrust reverser. You're dead in that situation.

 

Best regards,

Robin.

[FLEX1978 373]

I'm afraid I have never heard of that Robin, and something that has never been brought up with any of the outfits I have been involved in. It has always been to do with spool times.

 

What types are you refering to, also do you have link? very interesting, i will do some research myself.

 

Edit- well hey, you learn something new everyday, thanks for that info. I could only find a bit of info regarding a potential failure of one reverser. Is there anything further you can provide?

 

Cheers

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Hm, re. https://en.wikipedia...nsa_Flight_2904 sometimes a go around seems to be the better option.

But how could the pilots know that an embankment waits for them at the end of the runway?

 

Interesting find. There's a lot more information I'd like to have on that accident. Specifically, information clarifying the "old weather" statement. Was it identified as "old" by the controller because that was the last update, or was the author alluding to the weather having changed since the last automated update, or something else? Here in the States, controllers don't go off of the METAR in the towers, they go off of current observations (the ATIS comes from the METAR, however). Heck, even FBOs often have a little screen with this information shown up to the second. So, when a controller says "wind 220 at 17 gust 22," that's the wind as he glanced at a screen receiving live observations (or in the case of Charlottesville Tower, an old dial-based anemometer). So, that whole "reported headwind, but really a tailwind" comment has me a little confused...

 

As far as the pilots knowing the embankment was there, in the States, pilots are required to be knowledgeable of all information pertaining to the flight, as required by FAR 91.103. Granted, there's no specific statement that says they have to know everything about the airport and its surroundings, but that information is published in our A/FD. It contains obstacles for each runway, and often more information in the remarks section. Example:

"ENGINEERED MATERIALS ARRESTING SYSTEM (EMAS) 299 FT IN LENGTH BY 169 FT IN WIDTH LCTD AT DEP END RY 34."

 

It's not the time that is the problem, but ensuring they are LOCKED. You are putting TOGA power against a reverser that MAY not have latched fully locked by the time the power comes on, and the force of the airflow can force the reverse OPEN again, and now you have TOGA thrust against a thrust reverser. You're dead in that situation.

 

Totally didn't think of that at all. Definitely a concern, though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauda_Air_Flight_004

Granted, that was in flight, but the same principle applies. High thrust through a reverser...not good.

 

Edit- well hey, you learn something new everyday, thanks for that info. I could only find a bit of info regarding a potential failure of one reverser. Is there anything further you can provide?

 

Yeah, I hadn't thought of that either. I wouldn't discredit the spool time argument, either, though. Granted, we're not working with old slow-spool turbojets here, but there's still a decent delay, and you're still moving 100ish knots.

[19AB67 16]

or something else?

 

There was a rumour that the controllers kept the longer runway free because a Polish bishop was flown home resting for ever in a coffin. Consequently LH2904 and other aircraft were sent to the shorter cross wind runway.