There are people saying less than 800W and there are saying over, is there a systematic way to work out exactly how much I should have as a minimum?

 

You have to keep in mind that not all PSU's are the same.

That being said, a good 600 - 700W PSU is more than enough for any single GPU setup.

There a tons of people out there who have been running 2 x GTX480 SLI's on a Corsair TX750, and if you've ever owned a 480, you'll know what I'm talking about.

Thanks heaps for that. Just an estimate, I will need a 750W power supply, except maybe 800+ would be ideal? In case I want future expansions?

 

If you are going to use your PC only for FS then I think 800W is good. I bought 1000W because I play other games not only FSX.

There is something unanswered here or maybe I missed it. A lot of these conversations don't factor in one big variable, and that's resolution. What screen are you going to be using? If I use my (to me) tiny 27" @ 1920 x 1200, I get 8-10 fps more on average than when I use my 30" @ 2560 x 1600. There is also a massive difference in VRAM utilization between two resolutions with latter always exceeding 2.2 GB in addition to 3.0 GB FSX is already using.

 

I would highly recommend water cooling your GPU, I cannot tell you how happy I am by going full water on a custom loop. Another recommendation is, if you find yourself worrying about $100 here and there, it may be worth waiting a few months and saving a bit more. You don't want to be cutting corners - not unless you want to build another PC in 2 years. There is a big difference between 6 cores and 4 cores, there is also even a bigger difference with 12 logical cores vs 4. Yes for FSX HT makes no difference, but the extra 2 cores does help. Especially if you run addons like REX which can take 2 full cores sometimes maxing them out at 100% for 1-2 minutes at a time. Flying in/out of big cities/airports like KJFK or KLAX, when that weather cycle kicks in, if you don't have those 2 extra cores, you will take a big hit in your FPS.

 

As with everything, you will see great support for not buying something expensive in a community of people as masses won't be able to afford the premium parts, don't let this fool you into thinking that those parts are waste of money. Buy the best you can get, because sooner or later you are going to need it. Yes FSX might be the only thing for you, but a) it may not be, B) you will utilize your PC for something else, c) As mentioned in my REX example, even for FSX, more CPU muscle does help.

 

And one thing I forgot to tell you, and I feel very strongly about this, do whatever you can but don't buy those plastic cases. Buy something that uses as much aluminum as possible, it will last you a long time. I think these cases that look like they came out of transformers movie are a big rip-off. I would save my money for something better either lian-li or caselabs.

Especially if you run addons like REX which can take 2 full cores sometimes maxing them out at 100% for 1-2 minutes at a time

 

You mean the weather engine?

Haha, very good points throughout your post. I may just reconsider my parts, particularly the CPU and case side.

 

I am running 1920x1080 (from memory, can't remember exactly the res) on my dual 21". Regarding custom loop, I'm not quite sure, as I don't have the knowledge and experience. I don't really feel comfortable putting such an expensive system at risk due to my inadequate experience. So either spend a bit more on another GTX580, or just be happy with what I got, or find a smaller monitor.

Haha, very good points throughout your post. I may just reconsider my parts, particularly the CPU and case side.

 

I am running 1920x1080 (from memory, can't remember exactly the res) on my dual 21". Regarding custom loop, I'm not quite sure, as I don't have the knowledge and experience. I don't really feel comfortable putting such an expensive system at risk due to my inadequate experience. So either spend a bit more on another GTX580, or just be happy with what I got, or find a smaller monitor.

 

Look at my profile, that's a 5k build, and it was my first time to do a water cooling loop. I put it together in under 8 hours, that includes:

 

- CPU water block

- MOBO water blocks

- GPU water blocks

- Rad clean-up

- Loop design

 

I did my leak testing for 12 hours, and I was up and running the next day basically. Its just a lot of research that you need, took me about a month to read on the internet and get help. People in the forums are extremely helpful, any questions I asked in overclockers, evga, tomshardware, etc were all answered instantly.

 

I have a massive build btw (I think I could fit 3 kids the size of my 2 year old daughter in my case), and with so much overclocking and heat, its impossible to hear it unless you get really close to it. I wouldn't even dream about these temps and noise levels without this loop.

 

You mean the weather engine?

 

Yes, the weather engine. That thing takes so much CPU juice, its crazy. A weather load cycle that happens every 15 minutes takes somewhere between 1-2 minutes during which at least 1 and sometimes 2 cores are completely maxed out at 100%. That makes a big difference between a 4 core and a 6 core machine.

Still 5K although I can afford it, but it's still over the top for me. The 5k mark will probably be when I get a stable job and before I have too much bills to pay.

 

For now till then, I need something semi-decent.

 

But this loop design, I will certainly look at it being an expansion and further research, and what you said about getting top-end parts, are also very important. That's why I'm now slightly considering the 3930K. And how that's going to affect my other part choices.

I didn't mean go spend 5k, I meant I didn't screw up a 5k build in my first time, so you shouldn't be scared:) It's not rocket science, just needs patience and time, that's all and the rewards are worth. Once you complete the build, the look on your face is priceless:) You also need to remember, with water cooling, the parts almost never change, and they last many years. The blocks are always compatible with new Intel sockets, and if you buy a high end one (like the EK supremacy block), you can use it maybe 10-15 years.

 

To give you an idea about my temps here is my current OC:

 

CPU : 4.75 Ghz (1.4 vcore)

RAM : 2333 Mhz (4 x 4GB, 9-11-11-31 - these are very tight timings for this speed)

GPU : +150 core/+450 Memory

 

Ambient : 27C

 

Idle temps:

 

CPU (core temp - average of 6 cores) : 35

GPU : 27C

 

Load temps:

 

CPU : 59C

GPU : 34C

 

For benchmarking purposes, I pushed my vcore to 1.535 for 5.0 Ghz/2400 Mhz the idle temps did not change and the load temps in that case was 72C.

 

And I would like to strongly underline that my CPU is a very bad overclocker. 1.4 vcore for 3930k is a lot. There are people who use that voltage to go past 5.0 Ghz. But it should give you an idea what a custom loop can accomplish. Keep in mind my GPU and motherboard blocks (2 of them for ASUS RIVE) are all in the same loop, and this thing handles it all very well. Lastly, I am achieving these temps with almost silent fans, my fans are running at 500rpm. I undervolt them and you can barely hear them.

 

Now compare this with H100 (I dont think you can but), a) there is no way for the same vcore numbers you will even come close, there will be 8-10C increase, B) the noise will be unbearable. H100 is good at mild overclocks, say at 4.2 Ghz, it will have a lead on noctua air coolers and my custom loop will maybe have 1C advantage over H100, where a custom loop comes handy is extreme overclocks. Thanks to that loop I can run this overclock 24/7.

 

I had Prime95/Furmark running for 24 hours, and those temps are benchmark temps. My FSX temps are about 3-4C lower.

Still 5K although I can afford it, but it's still over the top for me. The 5k mark will probably be when I get a stable job and before I have too much bills to pay.

 

For now till then, I need something semi-decent.

 

But this loop design, I will certainly look at it being an expansion and further research, and what you said about getting top-end parts, are also very important. That's why I'm now slightly considering the 3930K. And how that's going to affect my other part choices.

 

You'd be much better off waiting for Haswell... probably, because we still don't know much about it.

Personally I'd take an extra 15% IPC over 2 extra cores any day of the week.

 

If REX's weather engine really takes up 2 full cores for minutes just to load the weather, I'd just ditch it and use Opus or ASE instead

*****Aim*****To get a machine where I can fly my addons (won't be anything stupid I hope) at a stable 30fps at any time

 

Main addons being all the weather ones, terrain or environment enhancements, EZCA, PMDG recent products (NGX, future 777, 747 v2 etc.), ORBX scenery, potentially growing into trackIR

 

Graphics setting pretty much all maxed out, except for those we all agree are less or insignificant, but AA being a big one for me personally

 

This would indicate to me you want a VERY powerful system.

 

Still 5K although I can afford it, but it's still over the top for me.

 

Fair enough, didn't know your budget until you posted this. 1-1.5K you can still come up with something good, but obviously you'll have to make compromises to your original aim. It's also hard to keep up with hardware changes, they can be rapid, but be aware that FSX can even bring the best of the best PC today down to 2 fps.

 

Thanks heaps for that. Just an estimate, I will need a 750W power supply, except maybe 800+ would be ideal? In case I want future expansions?

 

Watt rating is only part of the equation, you want a PSU that can respond to rapid load changes without producing huge changes in output ... I recall a time where I purchased a $500 PC Power and Cooling 1000 Watt PSU thinking it was the best of the best, unfortuantely it wasn't - frequent heavy load changes caused reboots ... put a scope on it and it's response to load changes was positively horrible (no wonder my components didn't like it) ... it would bounce around all over the place, yes it could handle 1000 Watts but how it responded to load changes was horrible. I eventually moved to a Silverstone PSU and have not had a problem since and the scope looks great too.

 

I have also heard of that, except not many cases are designed for it to flat that I'm aware of. Having said that, if I'm using a water cooling system, how would it really matter having it sitting upright? There shouldn't be too much stress on the MB as there aren't too much free-hanging weighted components?

 

A water block that attaches to the CPU, these are based on tension ... repeated heat cycles will reduce the tension over time (this happens be it vertical or horizontal) ... BUT on a vertical mount setup as the tension changes the water block falls away from the CPU with uneven pressure reducing the effectiveness of heat transfer over that section of the CPU. On a horizontal mount the tension will not shift across the CPU, it will stay relatively even. It's always a good idea to check block/CPU tension once a month (while one blows out the dust that gathers).

Fair enough, didn't know your budget until you posted this. 1-1.5K you can still come up with something good, but obviously you'll have to make compromises to your original aim. It's also hard to keep up with hardware changes, they can be rapid, but be aware that FSX can even bring the best of the best PC today down to 2 fps.

 

A lesson I've learnt (maybe now too late) is that (here's a little story telling, skip to next paragraph if you're not interested) ~ I bought a cheapo road bicycle when I first started my cycling hobby, thought bikes are so expensive! I then rode it to and from work, yea... ok... That was about it. One day, a friend who also rides came along and lend me his bike for a day, it costed 3 times more than mine. I initially thought, "ok what's the thrill here"... Although I was not able to tell a great deal of goodness from his bike, but MAN I enjoyed every second I was on that bike! From the moment I clipped my pedals in, till I put his bike back on the rack! So he told me to upgrade, and one thing he taught me is, "go all out!" Then I did (within reason), got a new bike, and one that I am missing every day since I'm not in the country for over 6 months now.

 

Moral of the story, agreeing with what you said, get something good and it'll last you for some years, rather than upgrading every year like I've been doing for the past many years since FS9 days... Finally I got FS9 to the standard I wanted, and companies started to develop for FSX!!

 

A water block that attaches to the CPU, these are based on tension ... repeated heat cycles will reduce the tension over time (this happens be it vertical or horizontal) ... BUT on a vertical mount setup as the tension changes the water block falls away from the CPU with uneven pressure reducing the effectiveness of heat transfer over that section of the CPU. On a horizontal mount the tension will not shift across the CPU, it will stay relatively even. It's always a good idea to check block/CPU tension once a month (while one blows out the dust that gathers).

 

That is exactly and precisely something that I would have never thought of, the minute details, and its through things like that this information may one day be passed onto someone else like me now. So thank you for bringing this up as a part of my consideration.

 

You'd be much better off waiting for Haswell... probably, because we still don't know much about it.

Personally I'd take an extra 15% IPC over 2 extra cores any day of the week.

 

Unfortunately, FSX is CPU intensive indeed, too much actually... And one problem is that I've been putting off getting a 2500K as I heard IB was going to come out. Now IB is out, if I continue to think something else is going to come out, then I must wait for it to first come out, and then someone else who has indepth knowledge of the workings of FSX (gurus) to test whether it'll run good and how it would run good on FSX. Then possibly something else is inline ready to come out... Then the cycle repeats.

 

I just feel now that there are decent supports from other users on the 3570K or 3770K (not sure if there are much support for the 3930K though), that is, this line of CPUs are quite mature in the FSX market (not interested in much other gaming other than the SimCity about to come out ); it's a good time to spend the money, and get another upgrade (with full cooling loop) when I get some decent income.

 

But now that you mention Haswell, it's definitely something I would keep an eye out, in case I haven't made up my mind with the parts when the time comes.

 

One other thing, sorry for being ignorance, but what is IPC?

IPC = Instructions per Clock. It's to be expected that Haswell will be faster clock for clock than Sandy Bridge, Ivy Bridge and Sandy Bridge - E

Word's out that it will be about a 10-15% faster. That means "notably" better frame rates with Haswell than a $1000 I7 3960X

Word's out that it will be about a 15% faster. That means notably better frame rates with Haswell than a $1000 I7 3960X

 

Not to seem as I am doubting you because I am in no experience or position to; but curious to ask, this 15%, is it only an expected performance increase through theoretical derivatives? Simulated results? Officially announced result or what? How did this figure come about?

 

Also with a release of a new CPU platform, does it mean a great increase in price, thus we need to wait for the MBs for that socket to come out? And again, a great increase in price for the other parts?

It's what's being rumored. And it's in line with past generation's speedups (Sandy Bridge wound up being a 15% faster than Nehalem)

You usually also get other small improvements, like better IMC's (Memory Controller) capable of running faster RAM, so you get another 5 - % if you get fast RAM.

For example, Sandys often top at about 2133MHz of RAM. Ivy can do some 2400 almost guaranteed. That's another 3%. It's to be expected that Haswell will be able to run faster memory clocks, and a faster RAM clock yields MUCH better performance benefits that all the memory channels in the world.

 

Then maybe, and this is pure speculation on my part, Haswell may overclock better than SB / SB-E.

 

You should easily get about a 20 - 30% performance edge with Haswell + fast RAM (that is getting faster and cheaper by the day) over those 6 core 3930K / 3960X

 

And if you're worried about the impact of those extra 2 cores, I suggest you do this experiment.

Disable one core in your BIOS and try FSX on 3 cores. Notice if there's any performance drop, and how texture loading is affected. I'm pretty sure you'll dismiss the idea of getting a X79 system right away

I am quite certain and believing that cores don't have that much of an impact on FSX from all the facts and figures going around. So kinda ditched the X79 already, and would rather put that on a nice steel case or upgrade some fans.

 

One question is that, will my expected setup (with a 3770K) be bottlenecked by my GTX580? I tried to see if I can get another 580, my local computer store seem not to have them anymore, and any 680+ are very expensive. If my 3770K matches or slightly bottlenecked by my 580, that means with Haswell, I must upgrade my videocard as well...

 

CPU cooler wise you could also go for this.

 

http://www.nzxt.com/...oler/kraken_x60

 

reviews seem good and it outperforms the H100i for $155.00 AUD, so same cost as the Corsair unit. I don't think it's available here in Aus for a couple more weeks though.

 

I've been looking at this cooler for the past couple of days, definitely really good, except the price, what I found (in France) is that the x60 is twice the price almost, as the H100i. Could you tell me where did you get the same price from?