Majestic Dash - Texturing?

[Arklight1 140]

As I'm sure some repainters of the Dash have noticed, the Dash does not seem to utilize alpha channels to their fullest potential. What I mean by this, is that you cannot make the aircraft surfaces more reflective (if you can, it seems to be by a very small amount). Samdim stated in the support forum that this is intenitoanl since he does not feel overly shiney aircraft are realistic. While I agree, I also don't think every aircraft is painted to be overly shiney in FSX (since it's up to the repaint creator how they create their art).

 

Therein lies the issue.

 

According to Samdim, the textures utilize Fresnal maps and whatnot to make the "shineyness" more subtle. My question is how do I alter a Fresnal maps make to make the shineyness LESS subtle? Altering the Alpha channels does not seem to really change the amount of "shine" on the aircraft. Here is what Samdim stated with regards to the lack of shine on the Dash. I am hoping this puts it in perspective with regards to what I need help with:

 

it is not an issue, it's how we made intentionally.
I don't like planes looking like a wet chupa-chups and unfortunately FS doesn't allow better reflections than that.
There is a reflection layer on the exterior model coupled to a fresnel ramp, but it is quite subtle (intentionally!).
You can find the necessary files in Texture.Common folder.

 

 

 

While I enjoy a good mystery novel just as much as the next person, the response is sort of cryptic and I am left not really knowing what to do. I love to repaint aircraft and have a bunch of ideas for the Dash, but I don't want to waste my time painting a bunch of aircraft that are going to come out like matte versions of their real-world counterparts.

 

The Dash texture folder contains a whole list of textures, and while I am fairly adept with Photoshop and repainting in FSX, I am at a loss when it comes to some of these files. I'm hoping one of you repainters/texture artists out there will be able to point me ion the right direction. Here is a list of the files present that I am not too sure about (i.e., which one do I work with and what exactly do I do if I want to increase the reflective properties):

 

q400_env.dds

q400_Fr

q400_fr_shine

q400_invFr

q400_shine.dds

q400ext1_spec

q400ext1_spec.dds

q400ext2_spec.dds

q400spec2

q400specular

 

It looks like most of those files would alter the same thing. :blink:

 

Any ideas/tips/etc.. that can help? I would ultimately like to increase the reflectivness of the painted surfaces as well as increase the shine effect for the external cockpit glass of the aircraft.

 

Thanks for the help!

[LEAPWeaver 5]

From what I have seen, the Q400 only uses dynamic shine and the model is not set up for using any sort of alpha channel. 

 

I have played around with some of the dynamic shine files and produced a slightly more defined look, but nothing extravagant. 

 

Here is how it works:

 

q400_shine.dds - This is the environmental reflection. This is designed using a cube map for a full three dimensional, 360 degree, environment. The Q400's default environment map was not set up properly by default so the effect is barely noticeable. You must set this to "cube map" when saving. I use nVidia photoshop tools, and there is an option in the saving menu to do this. 

 

q400_FR.bmp

q400_invFR.bmp

q400_shine.bmp

 

 The above files are the Fresnel Ramps. Essentially they are a gradient that controls the rate of the dynamic shine and it's width. Try using different types of gradients and colors and you can change they way the effect appears. These will not have a dramatic effect, but you will notice it slightly. 

 

The image below shows you what the q400 looks like after applying some of these changes using the Fresnel Ramps and Environment map I developed for the upcoming Flight1 King Air.

 

 

 

The aircraft should have had alpha channels assigned and the textures should have been created using the .dds format. If the alpha channels were present the amount of control over the shine would be completely up to the repainter and the control over the environment reflection and the dynamic shine would have been enormous. Even if the textures were supplied by majestic with a white alpha channel and all we had to do was change it to a different shade of gray, that would have an acceptable way to do it. IMHO, the way the textures are formatted now, reminds me of FS2002. 

 

 

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[Richard Sennett 2,499]

This is great Nick you are awesome this has been driving me crazy lol tonight have to give this a go, really appreciate you posting your findings

[samdim 26]

well, now it looks like a wet candy, exactly what I wanted to avoid.

 

 

The Q400's default environment map was not set up properly

 

 

 

properly or not - it was set to create the effect I was looking for - and did what I wanted to achieve. Exterior textures reflect a little bit of environment map but only looking from shallow angles (reflectiveness is always bigger when looking from shallow angles) - this is what the Fresnel ramp here for. Make it white and the environment map will reflect from any view point. And it will look ugly.

I know it's a question of taste, but can I create aircraft that look right according to my taste ? I think I can.

[Richard Sennett 2,499]

"The Q400's default environment map was not set up properly"      -               all this means is One does not have options why not let the consumer have an option this is your thought on how it should look but Others may not agree but at least giving the consumer the option would be a nice touch don't you think.

[virtualstuff 770]

nvm

[Arklight1 140]

"The Q400's default environment map was not set up properly"      -               all this means is One does not have options why not let the consumer have an option this is your thought on how it should look but Others may not agree but at least giving the consumer the option would be a nice touch don't you think.

 

 

^^^^^ This

 

Samdim, the grerat part about repainting is you have have your way and another artist can have theirs. The issue lies in the fact that one of the ways just doesn't work here.

 

Nick, looks much better!!! Is there a way to get the same shine effect on the external windshield glass?

 

*EDIT* Would it be possible to send your modified Q400 textures so I can use them as a starting point? I would greatly appreciate it!! 

[Dave_YVR 997]

 I'll admit, that screen does look fantastic. Honestly I'm REALLY not trying to stir the pot, but it looks like a model for a cover shoot, optimal lighting conditions, perfect angle, imperfections masked out etc but not like most often seen in the real world.

[LEAPWeaver 5]

well, now it looks like a wet candy, exactly what I wanted to avoid.

 

 

properly or not - it was set to create the effect I was looking for - and did what I wanted to achieve. Exterior textures reflect a little bit of environment map but only looking from shallow angles (reflectiveness is always bigger when looking from shallow angles) - this is what the Fresnel ramp here for. Make it white and the environment map will reflect from any view point. And it will look ugly.

I know it's a question of taste, but can I create aircraft that look right according to my taste ? I think I can.

 

Dimitri, 

 

 First, let me respond by saying that nobody here means any disrespect and we are all greatly appreciative of your efforts put forth on the Q400. The amount of work involved in a project like this is huge undertaking and I know this from personal experience. 

 

 Everyone has their own view on how things should be done or how they should look, and that is the beauty of our hobby. There is a lot of different talents out there that have their own ways of doing things. Since this was different from the norm we will have to adapt to the changes that we have been given. Some people like things to look glossy, others do not. I personally prefer things to be a dynamic combination of both and had to develop some methodology to create what create. 

 

 Again it was just a different approach and we will have to adapt. 

 

We all give you our thanks for what you have brought to us. 

 

^^^^^ This

 

Samdim, the grerat part about repainting is you have have your way and another artist can have theirs. The issue lies in the fact that one of the ways just doesn't work here.

 

Nick, looks much better!!! Is there a way to get the same shine effect on the external windshield glass?

 

*EDIT* Would it be possible to send your modified Q400 textures so I can use them as a starting point? I would greatly appreciate it!! 

 

Ark, 

 

I am still tinkering on the glass textures when I have a free moment. They are, however, proving to be a bit tricky. 

 

If you send me a pm with your email, I can send along the shine cube map and the fresnel's I used in the effect above. 

[gheeD 62]

Yeah.. there's two sides for the debate... developers went for realistic look, like you would see the AC in real life and the painters want to make it look like something you'd find on the cover of the magazine...

 

Just a matter of taste really, i like it how it is right now IMO.

 

Sent from my Huawei U8800.

[kdfw__ 543]

front window reflection could be improved, agree that it appears to be open.  and as a small-time repainter, having the option to adjust the alpha channel to make the textures look like a.net photos would be nice indeed.

 

but enjoying this new aircraft, amazing frame rates for the complexity and details.

[samdim 26]

 

 

IMHO, the way the textures are formatted now, reminds me of FS2002.

 

Nick, you are partially right.

Nothing surprising that this can remind you of FS2002 - this is when I started. But the way of texturing has dramatically changed in FSX, so impossible to transfer the old knowledge directly to the new sim.

Everyone adopted his own way to achieve the look of his liking. Now, if you consider our textures "user-unfriendly", I am sorry but I don't know any way to make them frendlier.

[Arklight1 140]

 

IMHO, the way the textures are formatted now, reminds me of FS2002.

 

Nick, you are partially right.

Nothing surprising that this can remind you of FS2002 - this is when I started. But the way of texturing has dramatically changed in FSX, so impossible to transfer the old knowledge directly to the new sim.

Everyone adopted his own way to achieve the look of his liking. Now, if you consider our textures "user-unfriendly", I am sorry but I don't know any way to make them frendlier.

 

Would it be possible to modify the model in a patch to allow us to utilize the alpha channels for the paint and glass?

 

That way those who prefer the current way can leave it alone while those of us looking to modify the textures have the ability?

 

As an aside, your work on the Dash is amazing. Its my new favorite FSX aircraft.

 

Thanks for your time!

 

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2

[Richard Sennett 2,499]

By the way Samdim you did an excellent job on these paints - thank you.   :Applause: