Oh! Today's been a good day- I've learnt something. They do: the free C172 and the SF260, and both probably unrealistic with their relatively stubby wings. I wasn't aware that you often - presumably - only need to make a rudder input at the start of a manoeuvre, or am I misunderstanding again? I can understand a plane's bank angle remaining (more or less) constant when the controls are (more or less) centred, but the momentary rudder input seems counter-intuitive... but then I've never flown anything other than a kite, and that was a long time ago!

 

Chris, would it be impolite to ask where you did fly in to today?

 

Cheers,

Dave

And some are even called - "feet-on-floor" :-)

 

Yes, on most GA aircraft you use the rudder to coordinate the turn when you initiate it, but then you can get it back to neutral.

 

Gliders, with their high aspect ratios are a different matter, but even those, at higher speeds, require a lot less rudder input.

 

The A2A and RealAIr aircraft are designed to satisfy the demands of their users over a long "spectrum" of flight situations, so, that was a price to pay if you want to be able to sideslip / forward slip them, and I accept it that way.

 

ELITE OTOH, has a remarkable replication of reality in as far as engine effects, adverse yaw etc... all go.

Oh! Today's been a good day- I've learnt something. They do: the free C172 and the SF260, and both probably unrealistic with their relatively stubby wings. I wasn't aware that you often - presumably - only need to make a rudder input at the start of a manoeuvre, or am I misunderstanding again? I can understand a plane's bank angle remaining (more or less) constant when the controls are (more or less) centred, but the momentary rudder input seems counter-intuitive... but then I've never flown anything other than a kite, and that was a long time ago!

 

Chris, would it be impolite to ask where you did fly in to today?

 

Cheers,

Dave

 

Momentary rudder input?  As in while entering a turn? That'd be the affects of adverse yaw when initially rolling into the turn.  Remember, one wing is making more lift than the other. More lift = more induced drag and yadda yadda.

Momentary rudder input?  As in while entering a turn? That'd be the affects of adverse yaw when initially rolling into the turn.  Remember, one wing is making more lift than the other. More lift = more induced drag and yadda yadda.

 

Yes, but, as you know, other forces come to play during the turn, otherwise you would have to constantly apply rudder "into  the turn", and on many GA aircraft you can even initiate the turn with the required rudder to counter adverse yaw, and then let go, and put your feet back on floor, right?

 

And... on a glider, for instance, you end up most times using opposite aileron to coordinate, thus crossing controls!!!, right? :-)

 

What I was refering to is that some models designed for FSX have to "exagerate the uncoordination" and thus require a lot more of constant rudder input than in RL, but they give their users the chance to experience more realistic sideslips and forward slips...

Yes, but, as you know, other forces come to play during the turn, otherwise you would have to constantly apply rudder "into  the turn", and on many GA aircraft you can even initiate the turn with the required rudder to counter adverse yaw, and then let go, and put your feet back on floor, right?

 

And... on a glider, for instance, you end up most times using opposite aileron to coordinate, right? :-)

 

What I was refering to is that some models designed for FSX have to "exagerate the uncoordination" and thus require a lot more of constant rudder input than in RL, but they give their users the chance to experience more realistic sideslips and forward slips...

 

Other forces? Of course.  I'm not sure I stated anything otherwise.  We were talking about the initial entry if I'm not mistaken?

 

As a matter of fact the "over banking tendency" (as it's called) is a phenomenon that happens in most if not all aircraft and is not limited to gliders.  I assume that's what you're talking about?  Not "coordination".  Sorry that bit was unclear.

 

"Uncoordination" isn't exaggerated in sim, I'd say.  It's harder to judge.

As a matter of fact the "over banking tendency" (as it's called) is a phenomenon that happens in most if not all aircraft and is not limited to gliders. I assume that's what you're talking about? Not "coordination". Sorry that bit was unclear.

 

Exactly!  Taking from John Denker's "See how it flies":

 

The strength of this effect depends on the ratio of the wingspan to the radius of turn. If you have stubby wings, high airspeed, and shallow bank angle, you’ll never notice the effect. On the other hand, in a glider you might have long wings, low airspeeds and steep turns — in which case you might need quite a bit of outside aileron deflection just to maintain a steady bank angle.

 

And of course adverse yaw can be compensated by differential aileron deflection too. That's why it is not so pronnounced on many aircraft.

 

Regarding the "exagerate" in my sentence, you're right about how we evaluate it in a sim as opposed to RL, but, have you, for instance, performed coordinated turns on RealAir's Decathlon or even the SF-260, or A2A's B377?

 

I mention these becase they are among my preferred FSX (now Prepar3d) models, but you'll notice the need for a LOT of continuous rudder dflection, way too much IMHO...

Regarding the "exagerate" in my sentence, you're right about how we evaluate it in a sim as opposed to RL, but, have you, for instance, performed coordinated turns on RealAir's Decathlon or even the SF-260, or A2A's B377?

 

I mention these becase they are among my preferred FSX (now Prepar3d) models, but you'll notice the need for a LOT of continuous rudder dflection, way too much IMHO...

 

Interesting.  I do own and fly the Captain of the Ship B377 out of the above.  I find it's rudder to be pretty ineffective throughout turns at any bank angle, so I can surely agree with you on that particular aircraft!  Though I've never flown a B377 so I guess there's that, too.

 

 

Chris, would it be impolite to ask where you did fly in to today?

 

Bob Quinn in British Columbia.

Interesting.  I do own and fly the Captain of the Ship B377 out of the above.  I find it's rudder to be pretty ineffective throughout turns at any bank angle, so I can surely agree with you on that particular aircraft!  Though I've never flown a B377 so I guess there's that, too.

 

You've got a very good point here - it's actually another way of looking at it - rudder inefficiency! I didn't think about it in that way, also because I think I know the kind of "tweak" some authors use to get better sideslip performance out of their models, and also, just as you point out too, I've never flown the real b377 :-) so, I can never say it is wrong the way it is.... I asked at the A2A forums though, should someone from the team have had the chance to fly the C97.

 

I also tend to measure it by the actual sideslip angles. I no longer have Hervé Sors or Tom Goodrick's precious gauges / tools to output these parameters on-the-fly, and I do not even know if it would work in LM Prepar3d, but looking at "the ball", it appears to me that the sideslip angle is indeed huge in a turn, at any bank and AoA, as you also point out.

 

It's more or less the same that happens with modelling of prop effects not natively modelled in FS's FD core, such as the effcets of spiraling slipstream. P-factor is used to somehow reproduce those effects, although it has a completely different nature, and in RL doesn't come to play under the exact same circumstances spriraling slipstream causes it's effects, but at least the end result is, IMO, better than what I got with the best XP10 add-ons :-/

 

It's a ballance, just as with most things in this life .... The end result is very rewarding in FSX / LM P3D... For me, (my oppinion) it is "perfect" in DCS World, specially when you take the p51d for a ride :-)

Hmm, I own ELITE v8 - the KingAir in it is probably the closest to real in terms of modelling a free-running turbine you can get :-)

So when you fly with this aircraft what happens with fuel flow and generator speed when you move the props from 2000 RPM back to 1700 RPM?

@ jcomm and ZachLW

I would like to thank you!

Thanks to Cessnaflyer's question, you made this thread very educational. 

I read around that, the new Dash8-Q400 my Majestic (FSX) uses an 'external' flightmodel, and it is said by the [sim] community to surpass well respected add-ons. 

Do you have any experienece on this regarding slips, skids, p-factors, etc.... ?

 

Regards

Sam

 

P.S.: Downloading DCS as we speak....

Cessnaflyer, on 03 May 2013 - 01:31 AM, said:

Cessnaflyer, on 03 May 2013 - 01:31 AM, said:

 

 

 

So when you fly with this aircraft what happens with fuel flow and generator speed when you move the props from 2000 RPM back to 1700 RPM?

Cessnaflyer: They will stay put and stick as supposed :-) - It's really a free-running turbine being modelled there, and as you know probably just as well as I do, this is not true of any MSFS or X-Plane turboprop (and XP10 even includes an option to configure your turboprops as such...!) with a free-running turbine!

 

Designers can use external code, as I believe a great add-on I had for fs9 did - Aeroworx B200 - but the core engine model is not working that way, and in the end that's what's being used for the final thrust calculation and output in the sim... This is also why I say ELITE is still the best simulator at accurately simulating the prop and turbuprop aircraft included in it's Premium package, even being such an old sim, with old-fashioned graphics out of the windshield :-)

 

In terms of flight, it is a good example of a feet-on-floor aircraft during turns. You use almost no rudder input, and regarding the huge / irrealistic torque-roll effects some flight simulators input on a B200 model, forget about it - the ELITE B200 has unperceptible roll due to torque when you increase thrust :-)  Asymmetric thrust is very well modelled too. I just regret that they didn't model aileron trim :-( - only rudder trim available :-/

 

 

SLKVP, on 03 May 2013 - 02:34 AM, said:

SLKVP, on 03 May 2013 - 02:34 AM, said:

 

 

 

@ jcomm and ZachLW

I would like to thank you!

Thanks to Cessnaflyer's question, you made this thread very educational.

I read around that, the new Dash8-Q400 my Majestic (FSX) uses an 'external' flightmodel, and it is said by the [sim] community to surpass well respected add-ons.

Do you have any experienece on this regarding slips, skids, p-factors, etc.... ?

 

Regards

Sam

 

P.S.: Downloading DCS as we speak....

SLKVP: I do not own the Magestic Q400, although I'm almost sure it's a great add-on.

The FDM used externally, an option not followed by other MSFS add-on devs, is another sim platform I respect and promote a lot as you can see through some of my posts at the FG Avsim forum :-) - FlightGear!

 

FlightGear has the possibility to be used as a FD calculator only, and the way around - you can use t just for the scenery and feed it with your own FDM :-)

 

The JSBSim is one of the best FDMs that come with it. It has more potential than the one used by MSFS / ESP and derivates, with MS FLIGHT being an exception ( I found at least two additional records in it's somehow hidden FD files that may account for the much better feel that it's best models, such as the Carbon Cub and the Maule M7, present under some circumstances...). I believe it is exactly JSBSim that's being used for the "external" calculations of the Q400.

 

For some years I used the best Boeing 747-400 simulator ever available for a PC (Aerowinx PS1 - and watch some images of

), made for MS-DOS, and wth very basic / poor external graphics, together with fs9, and then fsx (and even Flight Gear :-) ) thanks to FSUIPC and another module. It was great to have a nice b744 model in MSFS completely controlled (the sim was in Slew mode all of the time...) by the external mighty Aerowinx PS1. Of course the way the Q400 is doing it's job is certainly more advanced than the one used back then with PS1...

Sims3 :lol:

jcomm

Thanks for your answers. I learnt something today.  I appreciate