Hi William,you won

That is what I found, that it sinks ON the numbers.At 154 kts the 777-300 can be rotated and by 170kts should be at least getting a positive rate of climb.I will check this out with some 300 pilots. They might be able to let me know.Daniel

hi uwe, haven't tried the side view yet. will have a look though. thanks, william

hi uwe, just tried it in the 737 but didn't use the replay, i just rotated and held what i had then switched to an outside side view. only tried twice but no tail strike. actually it looked like a pretty good takeoff and impressive, IMO. i'm sure you're already doing this but also as i mentioned, before you start the takeoff roll spool the engines up a bit first, pop the brake and slowly EASE the throttles foward. kind of like letting the engines catch up with themselves as you're adding power, then once the throttles are up EASE the stick back gradually. anyway, that's what i did without a tail strike from the outside side view. now, i may be doing something wrong also. i might not be right on the numbers thus avoiding a tail strike. william

Two most realistic aircraft available for FS9 are PMDG 737 and Flight One's ATR-72. Airline Captain friend of mine has tried them both and immediately went out and got FS9 and these planes for himself.

LOL!!! good to hear. william

>After some testing I found the flight models of the default>aircraft unrealistic although I thought they were more>realistic before. (I have only owned FS2004 for a week now) Sometimes differences between users can be the result of differences in settings in the computer or flightsim. Where one may complain about the defaults, others do not, because of differences in settings. Those using the Flight Sim for a long time, have learned to automatically make certain settings. Where new users have not learned how or even that they can be changed. Personally in Real Life have flown the C172 and C182 since 1970. Am not licensed, but flew with friends one a flight instructor, who has passed on. He would have given me free lessons, owned a GA field in Paradise, CA. Much too far to drive, except on vacations. But have used the flight sim since 1982. After using earlier versions, am ectatic about the current version. The difference going from Hills drawn as lines, to addon Mesh accurate to about 10 feet of real altitudes. And equivalent changes in aircraft. Now, setting the _sensitivities_ and _null_ settings accurately to me is vital. If not set correctly, you get over control, with small movements of the controls. Or you have to move the controls too far, to start moving the surfaces, then they move too fast. Or, you cant get full movement of the controls surfaces at all, due to a sensitivity set too low. As Sticks or Yokes wear, sensitivities need to be reset and sometimes even set for individual aircraft. IE, flying with the same settings for a C172, and for 777, makes no sense for me. Soooo, Ive sat on the apron, set them while watching the control surfaces. Then _Saved_ those settings as: C172 Basic or C182 Basic, and B1900 Basic, etc.. Then, just load the aircraft to fly that day.... My default setting to load, is _previous flight_ so that I can pick up where leaving off. 80% of the time, flying Mike Stone's B1900, updated for FreedomAir. What anyone may do, is load up your aircraft, put it in spot view so you can see the control surfaces. Even hit + a few times to get a close view. Then set the Null setting first. If you move the stick, but the surfaces do not move, narrow the null space so they do. Setting it for just enough play so they do not move, unless you move your controls.Then Move your controls to see if you get full movement, with a full throw of the controls. Go to Sensitivities and make an adjustment, so you only get full movement, if you move the controls the full throw. Even if controls are badly worn, when sensitivity and null is correct you can still use them.Swing forward - back, to see if you get full movement of the surface, with full movement of the stick. If not, go to Sensitivities, and increase the sensitivity, then go back and check. If full control movement, before full movement of the controls, reduce sensitivity, for movement of controls and surfaces. Then, do the same with Left to Right or Port and Starboard movement. ;-) The same with rudder control. Ive seen many complaints that on final the aircraft swings back and forth across the ILS... If set correctly, you can also make slight corrections, without over correcting... Just by putting light pressure on the controls, without hardly moving them. Bob

It has nothing to do with the force sensitivities of the controls Bob.When rotation occurs the a/c should be at an angle to develop the lift required to develop a positive rate of climb thus lifting the a/c off the tar mac whilst still rotating. I have never seen an aircraft hold the nose 10 degrees attitude whilst the aircraft develops more speed. This is not right.Talk to any flight instructor they will tell you to hold back the yoke in order to take pressure off the nose whilst on t/o roll and landing roll in a Cessna (this is true for a Heavy too as their noses aren't designed to take huge amount of forces). Once you 'rotate it is for a positive move to get the aircraft off the surface.The speed set out on FS2004 777 nots is 154kts.Well you go by the book it don't work. And 154 kts is a high speed even for a heavy. To do 200 kts is absolute lunacy for life off to occur.I am sure this is soundly based, because I am working off the FS2004 manual.Does anyone have access to weight and speed minimums for take off on 777s? Each airline would be different, because their a/c don't all weigh the same. They all have a max take off weight which should be the same or similar.A clean take off is achieved when the aircraft is able to develop enough lift to leave the ground without a tail strike occurence.But if you want to ignore the speeds set out in the manual and achieve a take off without tailstrike maybe 190kts rotation is in order. That is above Boeing specs I believe.Also getting up to 190kts probably is not realistic for the length of runway you have, especially on a warm day with a heavy laden a/c.I am looking at some info now so will post shortly on what speeds take off can be achieved on 777 with 660 000 pound max weight.Daniel

Don't know when but I will get the info from a real manual and let you all know.Until then we cannot proceed with this discussion.Daniel

i just tried it twice in the 777 and the 737 earlier. i think it's a GREAT flight model! outside view, NO TAILSTRIKE. i used 8 degrees of pitchup trim,5 degrees of flaps and rotated at 154 and the nose came up around 160 knots with about 10 degrees of pitch up on the attitude indicator. flies like a swiss watch! now i didn't do this the first time out, took alot of practice and trial and error but it DOES WORK. sorry, but it works for me so i have to disagree that it doesn't work. william

i wanted to add that you might be pulling back to much on the stick. william

Hi everyone and JFRI also,I fly the Cessna C172 by Flight1 and find it infinitely more stable by far than the default MS C172. I have not, however, flown the Realair C172 so I cannot compare that to FLight1. But I have watched "Learning to Fly" series in the Discovery Wings channel and the lessons there are conducted on a C172 which is very very stable so the Flight1 obviously comes closer to reality than the MS default.As for the B777 - I agree with Daniel (nihongo) that there does not exist a good model for it yet. There are flight dynamics, though, made for the default 777 by Touradg Morassaei (filename = rd777fs9.zip) on AVSIM. Try them out if you haven't already and see how they feel. Any FDE is better than the default, that's for sure. For example, after flying the 737-400 default as no FDE or payware existed, I switched to the PMDG last summer and found a world of difference in its stability, particularly noticeable when landing.Good flying!John

On the contrary, I _never_ pull back on the yoke to take off. Each of the aircraft that I fly, the C172, C182, and B1900, takes off on its own... without touching the controls. Bob

hi bob, where are you setting your takeoff trim for the beech? william

Up about one notch, sometimes two.