KASE What a challenging Departure!Is there a standard departure DP for KASE RWY 15? RWY 33 has a published DP. I don't see one for RWY 15I departed RWY 15 and FS ATC was giving me vectors into the moutains as part of the departure itself. They turned me way to soon.Thanks!Barry

TAKE-OFF MINIMUMS AND (OBSTACLE) DEPARTURE PROCEDURESASPEN, COASPEN-PITKIN COUNTY/SARDY FIELDTAKE-OFF MINIMUMS: Rwy 15, NA. Rwy 33, 3100-3or 1000-2 with a min. climb of 460' per NM to 14000.DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: Climb heading 340

Thanks for the info.The problem is that FS ATC doesn't take into account terrain during the departure off of runway 15.So would the best bet to depart VFR and then get clear of the terrain, and then file IFR and rejoin the plan? I am trying to figure out away to prgram this into my FMC, but having some diffiiculty.Thanks!Barry

The problem is that FS ATC doesn't take into account that departures off runway 15 are not allowed. That is the real problem.Jozef http://pluizig.ath.cx/signature.jpg

Hi Jozef,I just did the departure off of runway 33 and it wasn't as bad. So you use runway 33 regardless of the winds :) I still would like to get more altitude before I turn to the first heading instructed by ATC.So basically, you select rwy 33 regardless of what FS ATC indicates. Can this be fixed in the AFCAD file for the airport, not allowing departures on runway 15?Thanks again!Barry

If you follow ATC procedure, you will be instructed to "fly runway heading," which will mean that you will plow into the mountains shortly after take off. What I basically do is to really crank up the vertical speed shortly after take off; even so, I barely make it. Also, if you follow ATC instructions you will have to weave your way through the mountains. Now, if I were a passenger on that flight, I'd be really concerned. But here is the REAL challenge: coming into Aspen at night, on a stormy winter day - how's that done?ricardo

>I still would like to get more altitude before> I turn to the first heading instructed by ATC. Remember the Pilot in Command, is always in command. There is no rule which states we must go into a mountain, just because ATC directs us there. ;-) Reminds me of an older version of the FS, which had "invisible" mountains. One time was flying at FL150 to Vegas, and ran into one cruising in an F15. My mental image was of bits and pieces scattered across about a mile of terrain. :-spacecraft Bob

>But here is the REAL challenge: coming into Aspen at night, on>a stormy winter day - how's that done?>>ricardoIt's not, brief the chart.http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/97431.gifThe Board's full report is available at http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/publictn.htm . HISTORY OF FLIGHT On March 29, 2001, about 1901:57 mountain standard time, a Gulfstream III, N303GA, owned by Airbourne Charter, Inc., and operated by Avjet Corporation of Burbank, California, crashed while on final approach to runway 15 at Aspen-Pitkin County Airport (ASE), Aspen, Colorado. The charter flight had departed Los Angeles International Airport (LAX) about 1711 with 2 pilots, 1 flight attendant, and 15 passengers. The airplane crashed into sloping terrain about 2,400 feet short of the runway threshold. All of the passengers and crewmembers were killed, and the airplane was destroyed. The flight was being operated on an instrument flight rules (IFR) flight plan under 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 135. The captain and first officer for the charter flight reported to the Avjet facility at the Burbank-Glendale Pasadena Airport (BUR), Burbank, California, sometime before 1300 (1200 Pacific standard time) on the day of the accident. An Avjet captain stated, in a postaccident interview, that he saw the captain checking the ASE weather on a computer display and discussing the ASE weather with an Avjet charter department scheduler while at BUR. Another Avjet captain stated, in a postaccident interview, that he saw the first officer performing what appeared to be a routine airplane preflight inspection on N303GA on the ramp at BUR. About 1200 (1100 Pacific standard time), the first officer contacted the Hawthorne, California, Automated Flight Service Station (AFSS) specialist for a weather briefing. A review of the audiotape indicated that the specialist informed the first officer of three National Weather Service (NWS) AIRMETs [Airman's Meteorological Information] pertinent to the flight to ASE, an 1141 weather observation for ASE, and the ASE forecast for 1300 to 1900. The specialist also informed the first officer that the approach procedure had been updated and that circling minimums were no longer authorized at night. During the briefing, the first officer filed the flight plan, identifying Garfield County Regional Airport in Rifle, Colorado, as the alternate airport. The captain and first officer departed BUR at 1538 (1438 Pacific standard time) for a positioning flight to LAX, arriving there 11 minutes later. While at LAX, the captain and a charter department scheduler discussed the status of the passengers' arrivals (none were at the airport when the airplane arrived) and the weather currently being forecast for the flight's arrival time at ASE. Also, the captain and another Avjet captain discussed the nighttime landing restriction at ASE that required the airplane to land within 30 minutes after sunset. ASE's nighttime airport operating hours, according to an airport chart dated November 1, 1994, indicated that aircraft that did not meet FAA stage III noise criteria were not authorized to land at the airport on March 29 after 1858. The airplane's departure from LAX at 1711 (1611 Pacific standard time) was 41 minutes later than originally scheduled because of the late arrival of the passengers, including the charter customer. The flight was planned for 1 hour 35 minutes, so the estimated arrival time at ASE was 1846-12 minutes before the airport's nighttime landing curfew. Statements early in the cockpit voice recorder (CVR) recording indicated that the flight crew was aware of the nighttime landing restriction at ASE. The CVR transcript indicated that, about 1831:06, the captain stated, "well, there's the edge of night right here." About 1831:24, the first officer asked the captain about the time of official sunset for ASE. The captain replied "six twenty eight" and then stated, "so we get thirty minutes after sunset. so six fifty eight...about...seven o'clock." About 1837:04, the first officer called for the approach briefing. The captain then stated, "we're...probably gonna make it a visual...if we don't get the airport over here we'll go ahead and shoot that approach" and "we're not going to have a bunch of extra gas so we only get to shoot it once and then we're going to Rifle." The first officer acknowledged this information. About 1839:56, the flight crew began to receive automated terminal information service (ATIS) information Hotel. Afterward, the first officer read back the wind, visibility, sky condition, and temperature information, and the captain acknowledged this information. About 1844:22, the first officer made initial contact with ASE approach control. About 1844:43, the flight crew heard, over the ASE approach control frequency, the request of a Canadair Challenger 600 airplane, N527JA, for another approach to ASE. The approach controller then cleared N527JA to continue on the published missed approach procedure. About 1845:00, the first officer stated, "I hope he's doing practice approaches." About 3 seconds later, the captain asked the controller whether the pilot of N527JA was practicing or had actually missed the approach. The controller replied that the pilot had missed the approach and indicated that he had seen the airplane at 10,400 feet. The controller also informed the captain that two other airplanes were on approach to ASE. About 1845:32, the controller instructed the flight crew to turn to a 360

Barry,My father-in-law is chief pilot for a major corporation and flies the CEO to Aspen in a GIV almost every weekend. There is a new straight in approach to Aspen that requires special certification and a high performance aircraft. I had to add a localizer to the field to make it work and I have the approach plate. I don't feel right posting it because I believe it is proprietary but if someone wants to talk more about it, drop me an emailHere are a few real-world tips regarding the normal VOR DME approach- it is not authorized at night. Check the NTSB site to see what happens to Gulfstreams that attempt to land in Aspen in bad weather at night!- It is almost impossible for a jet to fly the VOR DME approach as a noncircling approach. If you study the approach you will see that it only gives circling minimums. If you fly the approach to minimums and break out at the published altitude and distance you will find that you are way too high for a safe landing in anything faster than a turboprop, and even then...- The circling approach to 33 is rarely done in a jet because, as you will see by trying it in the sim, there is no safe way to fly anything close to a stabilized approach- Basically, they land rwy15 and depart rwy33 as long as the tailwind is less than 10kts. Anything more than that and they go to Eagle (KEGE)I've flown the published and proprietary approaches in a level D (full motion)Gulfstream simulator and a good landing will feel like landing on a carrier. It is not a field to try to grease it on because if you have to balk and go around, you are really in trouble!Enjoy!David

WOW...What a coincidence.I just flew this in my Sim.. cause I saw this airport listed as one of the dangerous ones.http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds/main/howt...te/linkpage.htmAnd I came here and posted asking if anyone know any more dangerous approaches..and I see your post.WOW.. Unbelievable.dang!.

Hi David,I changed the AFCAD for KASE to close runway 15 for departures.Departing out of KASE on runway 33 isn't too bad. I just wish I could get more altitude flying runway heading until I reach FL 120 or above before being turned back towards the moutains. I am sure that is what the controllers do. It would be interesting to get a flight plan from KASE and see what is actually flown as part of the departure.Thanks again for the info. I took off 15 and it was like threading a needle. I was able to make it as long as I veered a little to the right between the peaks.Thanks!Barry

Cool idea to change the AFCAD (not sure how to do it myself)! The Linzy four departure is pretty much what they fly although you might get cleared back to DBL before making it all the way to Gleno if you can climb fast enough. It is on the chart but I believe you fly 360 up to 8700 then left to 270 until picking up the LOC BC (108.5). Remember it is reverse sensing and it is offsite so you will be surprised how long it takes to intercept it. Don't miss it though or you might get a scenic tour of Maroon Bells and the big peaks that surround it! The highest peaks in Colorado are all below 14,500 ft so once you get to that point, go whereever you want! EnjoyDavid

Oh, if you don't use addon meshes, you might find that the VOR DME approach drives you into a mountain. That was definitely true in FS2K2 but not sure about COF since I use addon meshesDavid

>Cool idea to change the AFCAD (not sure how to do it myself)!>>David To close a runway in AFCAD... Click on List, Runway, choose the runway, and you will see the boxes for closing for landings or takeooff's... Bob

>The problem is that FS ATC doesn't take into account that>departures off runway 15 are not allowed. That is the real>problem.Yep... closing 15 for departures will save many AI people for a horrible fate! :)