Sgier Pc-12 in my hangar :-)

[pryoski 84]

Hi CyberMike ... I'd be interested in a comparison between the current STMA PC-12 and your current PC-12.

My interest is actually NOT in the NG versions as I don't particularly like glass cockpits .. unless the detail is 95% accurate .

Same for the older standard versions (older as in older version of the aircraft .. not older X-Plane version aircraft) .. I'm really interested in systems depth as well as  in how the flight model is represented.

Seeing as I have you (the developer) here answering my questions ... how in depth and accurate are your systems? BTW .. I value jcomms opinions .. so I'll take it as given that the FM is pretty good .

 

Cheers, Kris

[CyberMike 18]

Kris, that's probably best for jcomm or other purchasers to answer.

As developer, I only remember 2-3 overhead switches to be not functional but GPS etc. is default x-plane. Also the annunciator panel is not very easy to read, which I should update someday. I have no clue about stma, hence I cannot compare.

[jcomm 5,961]

I only own the sgier pc-12, and I am happy with it, so, I'll pass the STMA model :-/

 

Regarding the need for yoke / rudder input, this model feels very well ballanced. It uses no tweaks, just engine cant, like the real thing.

 

Most add-ons in X-Plane fail miserably at replicating stall characteristics. It is not uncommon to find a model that recovers from stall, climbs again and stalls, then climbs, etc... One of the tests I do to a model is precisely how it reacts to a fully pulled yoke (cruise trim), at iddle power, after a stall entered at very low speed, without giving any yoke... This pc-12 has successful passed my test :-)

[pryoski 84]

Thank you for your replies

[Murmur 3,944]

Let me quote once again the Rutan Varieze manual ( http://www.raptorairworks.com/documents/VEZOMAN.PDF ):

 

"Roll trim is available to offset trim changes due to engine power." (page 7, "TRIM SYSTEMS")

 

"You will need to reset roll trim for the descent when power is reduced." (page 15, "DESCENT")

 

So no myths, the simple fact is that every aircraft could have a different behaviour regarding this issue, and saying that requiring aileron trim after power changes is unrealistic, is at best too much of a generalization.

[Geofa 108]

My beef is not with the fact that this aircraft may need roll trim, but of videos being posted which show pilots making obvious small wind corrections (called crabbing) and justifying this as showing the aircraft tendency to roll.

[LAdamson 240]

My beef is not with the fact that this aircraft may need roll trim, but of videos being posted which show pilots making obvious small wind corrections (called crabbing) and justifying this as showing the aircraft tendency to roll.

Same here. Much of the time, we don't know the exact wind conditions, that are present in the video. I just start watching many videos. And that's when I start seeing left, as well as right, or no aileron movement at all. Most of it, really does have to do with wind corrections.

 

As far a roll trim on a canard, it's another interesting topic. One, in which you can spend many more hours reading. There is swept wings, anheadral, tip sails (rudders) which have added dihedral effect, and much more. I'm still reading.......

[jcomm 5,961]

Well, given the weather conditions / low overcast / fog, I guess the wing was not a factor here... Anyway, I agree it's complex to exactly determine why the corrections occur...

[Geofa 108]

I don't think I've ever done a single takeoff in all weather conditions where maintaing a precise ground track with a runway centerline doesn't require a series of quick adjustments including using the yoke ( and rudder) as shown in the video.

[jcomm 5,961]

One thing is for "sure" for me ( will never be able to tell for real, because I do not own PPL for "engined" aircraft... ) - In X-Plane the effect is overdone probably because other compensating factors are not beeing modelled correctly, but the following video of a takeoff and initial climb clearly shows the manche deflected to counter the torque effect, and later in the video (starting around 04:17 ) when the camera focuses first on the right wing and shows an hint of aileron trim tab deflected DOWN, implying right aileron deflects up, and then on the left wing you can see the aileron trim tab deflected UP ( a bit ) thus implying a down deflection of the left aileron, both compatible with roll trim to the right is being used :-)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48cgihqGbgs   ( Thx ALEC !!! )  (after 02:50 )

 

 

I can only tell you that if there are two simulators that probably PERFECTLY model all of these effects, even if at different levels of detail, they are DCS World and ELITE v8.6.

 

In DCS's P51d, I do have to use aileron on takeoff and hight power climbs at slower speeds, but rudder has to be used to counter the yawing tendencies, and at wings level, the ball is centered - not quite like so in X-Plane 10...

 

As I gain speed, lower AoA, the rolling moment vanishes and I can ease any deflection / trimming of aileron.

 

In ELITE, most of the models present a notable yaw to left on takeoff roll and climb, requiring right rudder, but no aileron input as soon as the aircraft lifts off. Of course, if I do not correct the yawing tendency, a slow roll to the left will slowly build up.

 

I'm anxiously awaiting IL2 Battle of Stalingrad beta release in a month, because I'm almost sure we will get yet another PERFECT sim for ( powerful ww2 ) prop aircraft... and again, I'll be "forced" to use a military simulator because I can't find what I want in any of the civil ones ( please notice ELITE is not meant for aerobatics / extreme flight situations, and I like to explore those regions, as well as nicer than the very basic 3d scenery provided by that sim - otherwise I could feel OK with just my ELITE v8.6 :-)

 

If someone comes up with a good suggestion for some free software to record a movie of a flight in ELITE I'll gladly make a demo and post it at AVSIM, in the videos forum... I'll try to show how accurately that simulator reproduces those prop effects, way better - IMO - than either FSX or X-Plane (or, for the sake of completeness, MS FLIGHT, AeroflyFS and even Flight Unlimited....). I really do not recall how it was in Fly!, Fly!2 and Propilot99 :-/

 

I do not believe Austin will address this problem in version 10. He'll probably feel forced to do something about it when he announces X-Plane 11...

[Murmur 3,944]

If someone comes up with a good suggestion for some free software to record a movie of a flight in ELITE I'll gladly make a demo and post it at AVSIM, in the videos forum... I'll try to show how accurately that simulator reproduces those prop effects, way better - IMO - than either FSX or X-Plane (or, for the sake of completeness, MS FLIGHT, AeroflyFS and even Flight Unlimited....). I really do not recall how it was in Fly!, Fly!2 and Propilot99 :-/

 

The free version of FRAPS is limited to 30 seconds recording, but it could be enough for your purpose.

 

http://www.fraps.com/download.php

[jcomm 5,961]

Great! Thx Murmur, I'll probably give it a try ;-)

 

But actually the ELITE demo reuns for 3 minutes, and although is not v8.6 ( I believe it's early v8 ), it's good enough to have an idea of how it performs.

 

Keyboard INSERT / DELETE,  HOME / END  and PgUP / Pg DN can be used to control throttle up/dn, prop up/dn and mix or condition up/dn :-)

 

Also make sure in the Configuration ( ALT-C ) screen, when in ELITE, you chose the "Enable" Yaw Control button because otherwise there will be a sort of auto-coordinator...

 

 

[LAdamson 240]

One thing is for "sure" for me ( will never be able to tell for real, because I do not own PPL for "engined" aircraft... ) - In X-Plane the effect is overdone probably because other compensating factors are not beeing modelled correctly, but the following video of a takeoff and initial climb clearly shows the manche deflected to counter the torque effect, and later in the video (starting around 04:17 ) when the camera focuses first on the right wing and shows an hint of aileron trim tab deflected DOWN, implying right aileron deflects up, and then on the left wing you can see the aileron trim tab deflected UP ( a bit ) thus implying a down deflection of the left aileron, both compatible with roll trim to the right is being used :-)

In this video, the P-51 ends up left of the centerline on the initial climb, but continues with a left banking turn. I don't see "torque effects", as part of the left banking. I've been watching other P-51 videos, including this plane, where the takeoff is "wings" level. I'm mostly interested in watching the ailerons during the initial climb. This is to see, if they're countering a left roll.There are plenty of videos, in which the ailerons are quite neutral for the most part. Just a bit of left or right. As to the aileron tabs, I'm also seeing different amounts, with different videos. Considering fuel load, rigging, etc, it's tough to make a conclusion about the tab deflection.

[jcomm 5,961]

Larry,

 

I would be curious to find your and Geofa's oppinion on the way ELITE 8 performs.

 

I have been using this sim since v7, and believe that although it's one of those simmers will easily classify as "on-rails", it does just about everything you should require ( for IFR training ) and mimics the behaviour of it's  prop models very close to the real thing.

 

I could have that confirmation from pilots who own Pipers ( Arrow ) and Tobago ( 20 ). They found ELITE yaw due to slipstream effects extremely realistic, as well as the roll ( very mild and only if you do not correct for the yaw, unless at really high AoA / low speed...).  A go aound in the TB-10 or TB-20 in ELITE will require quite a foot work...

 

The A36 and the Baron58, as well as the Seneca, show very mild prop effects.  The B200 was designed with the Yaw-Damper permanently ON, so, those effects aren't noticeable.