I was missing a good Pc-12, since I used the Flight1 model for FSX.

 

Today I decided to give the Sgier a try, and so far am very well impressed with a short test flight.

 

There is a whole manual to read, specially for the NG version, but I really like it's handling!

 

Ah! Excellent documentation on the Pc-12 included with this model, and lifetime update ( not just restricted to the X-Plane 10 cycle )!

 

http://x-plane.sgier.com/pc-12.html

Interesting. Watched the video on the website. A bit old, it seems, esp. the cockpit (although I must admit that this is another plane with terrain view on the moving map ... never knew about that).

 

The avionics look very strange: a crude mixture of X-Plane default elements, and the big MFD in the center has hardware switches (for com or nav frequencies or something) "displayed".

 

I guess this could be a nice plane, if the author took the time to create a good cockpit.

Yes, the graphics are not up to the latest standards, but it is also true that that's not the kind of feature I look after on a good aircraft add-on.

 

The panel is easy to use, and the documentation teaches how to use both version ( std instruments and G-like in the NG version ).

 

Above all, this aircraft is another excellent example of something I have been tracking lately... the claim that a well designed FDM provides flight characteristics that are realistic!  

 

The reason I decided to buy this add-on was the prompt answers I got from the author, and also the chance I have had to talk to a RW pc-12 pilot and ask him about the usual question I and Larry usually ask :-)

 

I can tell you that this aircraft performs beautifully all accross the flight envelope, and uses absolutely NO art stab tweaks!

 

Enjoying it a lot, specially because I was missing a Pc-12 since I used the old Flight1 Pc-12 for FSX...

Glad you like it

 

I'm just _very_ critical when it comes to EFIS systems; when the look and feel seems not at all "plausible". I nearly got angry when I saw the DA-42 payware advertised with a G1000 when it did not even _look_ remotely like a G1000. (Which made me then create a modification to improve the look a bit.)

 

I guess if I'd use this addon, I'd stick to the analogue version then

Mario,

 

if I ever get that DA-42,  I'll ask for your G1000 mod then ;-)

Jcomm, I'm sure the Sgier PC-21 is good. Have you tried the STMA version of the PC-21? It's one of my favorite planes.

 

I'd be curious what your perspectives might be regarding a comparison as I get the impression that the STMA version has more systems depth .. but it's not the NG version .. they are working on that as I understand it for a future release.

FYI, Papamac (main guy @ Shade Tree Micro) is an ex US army pilot (his bio is on his site) ... and a great guy to talk to as well.

The reason I decided to buy this add-on was the prompt answers I got from the author, and also the chance I have had to talk to a RW pc-12 pilot and ask him about the usual question I and Larry usually ask :-)

Does that mean, that you don't have to firmly grasp the aileron "control".....with all of your might, just to stay wings level?

Jcomm, I'm sure the Sgier PC-21 is good. Have you tried the STMA version of the PC-21? It's one of my favorite planes.

 

I'd be curious what your perspectives might be regarding a comparison as I get the impression that the STMA version has more systems depth .. but it's not the NG version .. they are working on that as I understand it for a future release.

FYI, Papamac (main guy @ Shade Tree Micro) is an ex US army pilot (his bio is on his site) ... and a great guy to talk to as well.

 

Nope, I don't have the STM version, but was told it is really good too

Does that mean, that you don't have to firmly grasp the aileron "control".....with all of your might, just to stay wings level?

 

Not "with all of your might" (you don't need to do that in X-Plane either), but I probably a certain deflection would be necessary, looking at the slight right yoke deflection immediately after take-off in this PC12 video (2:30):

 

 

Compare with X-Plane PC12 (7.30):

 

Does that mean, that you don't have to firmly grasp the aileron "control".....with all of your might, just to stay wings level?

 

Yes, indeed. It uses a default rudder trim set, just like the real thing, for takeoff and climb. When power is reduced for descent adjustment is required, just like the real thing.

 

But, just like the author points out, it is still for Austin to correct some of the overdone torque effects... probably more due to the fact that other effects are not being fully simulated... but there's good hope for the future :-)

 

@Murmur: Thx for both videos. I guess the x-plane version on the 2nd one is the STM (?)

 

Good  video showing the real thing, specially because you picked up one with a day with a weather situation that most certainly guarantees a non significant wind component ( low overcast / fog ). So, undoubtedly the use of right yoke is due to the torque, BTW confirmed at LPEV by the only Pc-12 provate operator in Portugal :-)

 

He also confirmed the need to adjust aileron trim for descent, otherwise it'll want to bank right!

Not "with all of your might" (you don't need to do that in X-Plane either), but I probably a certain deflection would be necessary, looking at the slight right yoke deflection immediately after take-off in this PC12 video (2:30):

So, I check out the video in question. It's a soft field takeoff, with flaps 30 and rotation at 72 knots versus the normal 80. A quick bit of aileron deflection, in a high power, low airspeed situation. Nothing like we see in flight simulation discussions, followed by a description of Newton's physics, to account for the mess.In the meantime, I spend the next hour looking at PC-12 takeoff videos, and reading pilot reports. I see a bit of right aileron, a bit of left aileron, or no aileron.... in these takeoffs. And then, on to the pilot reports. Lot's of mention, about setting the rudder trim tab, to account for the high power engine torque. Never a mention of left roll on the takeoff, which is very unlike the detailed roll descriptions we'll read about on various flight sim forums. Just some talk of the "auto rudder damper" being set on the PC-12. Other than that, just smooth uneventful takeoffs.

 

As to opposite aileron trim during decents, as mentioned in this thread......the question is why? What is built into the plane, that requires opposite aileron trim? They did away with aysmetrical wings, to eliminate that problem, many years ago. The prop isn't driving the engine with some big force, to promote opposite torque either. You'll usually find flight manuals that list opposite rudder, instead of aileron to counteract opposite yaw on descent. But what the heck.....if yaw isn't taken care of with opposite rudder, there will still be some roll coupling thanks to the dihedral built into the wings.

 

Once again, I brought the topic up at today's breakfast, with a group of pilots. They're probably sick of my questions, as none of them use desktop flight sims. I think they're more into the shoot-em up type games. :smile: But one did mention left roll on takeoff. He was trying to teach takeoffs in his plane, but had a hard time of getting the "rudder" message to the pilot in training. Without enough right rudder, the plane would head to the left side of the runway, followed by a left dip on takeoff. That's just what I would expect. As to himself, he just keeps the airplane on the centerline, and never thinks about roll.....even if he moves the stick one way or the other, subconciously. It's like the turbine powered crop duster pilot I talked to. When the initial "roll" question was brought up.........he said "yes", there is torque. Then coming back a week later, after some flights and thinking about it.........he said, just use whatever direction of aileron is required to stay level....and that "torque" was just of "no" consequence.

 

 

Compare with X-Plane PC12 (7.30):

Good heavens! If a real plane dipped to the left, that bad on takeoff, I'd have grounded it, to see if the parking chains were still hanging from the left wing....after they pulled the anchor out!

 

 

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When I add to, edit, or only leave one line space between paragraphs, this web site, automatically eliminates the seperate paragraphs, and lumps them altogether. Then I have to edit, and make a double space between each paragraph. Does this happen to others? I know my browser is ancient, but....

So, I check out the video in question. It's a soft field takeoff, with flaps 30 and rotation at 72 knots versus the normal 80. A quick bit of aileron deflection, in a high power, low airspeed situation. Nothing like we see in flight simulation discussions, followed by a description of Newton's physics, to account for the mess.In the meantime, I spend the next hour looking at PC-12 takeoff videos, and reading pilot reports. I see a bit of right aileron, a bit of left aileron, or no aileron.... in these takeoffs. And then, on to the pilot reports. Lot's of mention, about setting the rudder trim tab, to account for the high power engine torque. Never a mention of left roll on the takeoff, which is very unlike the detailed roll descriptions we'll read about on various flight sim forums. Just some talk of the "auto rudder damper" being set on the PC-12. Other than that, just smooth uneventful takeoffs.

 

The power induced yaw in X-Plane seems to be underdone, there has been discussions about this in the past.

 

Apart from that, you have to consider this: in a real aircraft, usually the aileron control is the lightest of the three, while the rudder control is the heaviest one. So, even in the hypothetical case that the same rudder and aileron deflections would be needed (and that should not be the case), the rudder would be felt much more.

 

Contrast this with a PC joystick, where the roll and pitch axis have the same stiffness, and the PC rudder pedals are also quite light. In this case you'd notice the roll deflection more, relatively to the other axes, and compared to a real aircraft.

The power induced yaw in X-Plane seems to be underdone, there has been discussions about this in the past.

 

Apart from that, you have to consider this: in a real aircraft, usually the aileron control is the lightest of the three, while the rudder control is the heaviest one. So, even in the hypothetical case that the same rudder and aileron deflections would be needed (and that should not be the case), the rudder would be felt much more.

 

Contrast this with a PC joystick, where the roll and pitch axis have the same stiffness, and the PC rudder pedals are also quite light. In this case you'd notice the roll deflection more, relatively to the other axes, and compared to a real aircraft.

As to the real aircraft, rudder deflections on the ground are not that heavy (see below). The same applies to the initial climb, where rudder is needed to counteract yaw. In cruise, there should be a fixed or adjustable rudder tab, or offset vertical stabilizer to eliminate yaw. If there is no tab or offset, the rudder forces are very strong, and you'll probably just let the plane yaw. With the tab or offset in effect, while in a climb or descent, it doesn't take that much pressure to keep the plane going straight on it's heading.

 

As to the PC sticks and rudder pedals, I keep my joystick pressures light. I cut down the spring on my Saitek X-45, and the lighter spring in the X-52 is just fine. I also keep the rudder pedals on the light side. The throw distance of the stick or pedals, does not matter to me. I do just as well, with those short 2" R/C joysticks, up to the real life, long stick of a Stearman. Most of the "feel" is already in my brain. What I see on the monitor, combined with that bit of spring resistance..........works for me. If I see a roll, that shouldn't be there, then I'll sense the roll, because I know what real roll forces feel like. People that do just fine with full size airplanes, will usually over control a P/C sim or radio control plane, until they get use to it. Then the stick throws or spring pressures won't matter.

 

 

* Required rudder pressure --- will depend on preset trims, built in vertical stabilizer offsets, and the engine cant.

The right deflection is a quick correction to correct for a wind from the right to keep the aircraft on the runway centerline - the hallmark of a commercial pilot and instinctive after many hours...

I have I mentioned this any times before on the "videos" but it seems that myths are more important...

Why I don't post here much anymore...

I'd be curious what your perspectives might be regarding a comparison as I get the impression that the STMA version has more systems depth .. but it's not the NG version .. they are working on that as I understand it for a future release.

 

Only some switches are not working on the 2 older cockpits. The NG is behind but should catch up someday after my upcoming PC-24. Well hopefully as for the moment I've a lot of headache to integrate:

https://github.com/PhilippMuenzel/vascore-embedded

 

I wasn't impressed by stma's v8 pc-12 either, which was about as basic as my freeware xplane8 pc-12. So, if they think to do better...good luck.

 

My PC12 needs only at takeoff, on the runway some rudder correction. I think it's to much compared to a real airplane, but that's for Austin to fix.

In the air the engine inclination (planemaker engine section) makes it fly straight.

 

Thanks jcomm for the purchase and some kind words.