With the Haswell chips its the luck of the draw. Looks like I got one of the good ones. I bumped mine up to 4.8 but it crash when windows starts, so for now I'll just leave it on 4.5

Half your luck.. I got a 4770K that won't go any higher than 4.3Ghz and needs 1.3v to do so stable..

The same can easily be said about HT with it been off. The fact is some people say they get better performance with it on, some say the opposite. I dont need to turn off HT because at 4.5Ghz, my system runs great and it stays cool. The pic I posted shows my temps while play fsx, and that is with all the sliders to right. Thats pretty good if you ask me and my framerate never drops below 28.

 

Well, your frame rate is irrelevant, my frame rate is far higher than yours with a 3770k at a lower overclock and no HT.

 

 

The same can easily be said about HT with it been off.

 

True, but you were the one making the extraordinary claim, a claim that's against conventional wisdom. And as Carl Sagan said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Therefore it's up to you ro provide that evidence.

 

What you may not realise is that there actually is a theoretical basis as to why HT is of no benefit in FSX. However, there is no theoretical basis as far as I know to explain why an app [FSX] not coded to take advantage of HT, would do so.

 

In addition, lets not forget that you yourself admitted that it may well be the increased cache that's providing the benefit not HT. So your claim that HT IS of benefit is a claim you can't make.

 

Nick Needham looked at this question, and carried out the relevant tests to determine if HT was any advantage in FSX. His conclusions were quite definitive that it doesn't. I'm not a fan of everything Nick tells us, but given his technical expertise, and his qualifications, I do trust his opinion in this respect.

 

 

This is what Nick said...

 

#7. Intel Hyper Threading: FSX has no code to recognize or process logical core hyper thread. I don't know how many times I have read some 'guru' has come up with an assessment that FSX will make use of or runs better with hyper thread enabled. This person really needs a sign! The REAL terrain 'guru' Adam from Aces as well as Phil Taylor specified years ago that FSX does not support any logical core threading (hyper thread).

 

 

The reason you SEE logical core activity in the Windows CPU monitor window is because the physical cache is used for each logical (hyper thread) core. "logical" core means there is no 'physical' hardware core but the hardware cache in use is there, and, FSX is DUMB so a thread is spawned due to the physical cache in use, but the data is never processed and used by FSX!

 

 

Don't buy a cheaper processor just because it does not include hyper thread support and you think you can save a buck. Typically those processors come with a smaller total cache and that is a mistake! Budget builders.. fine, buy the cheaper i5 but remember, you get what you pay for in that build.

 

http://www.simforums.com/forums/the-fsx-computer-system-the-bible-by-nickn_topic46211.html

 

 

Apologies to the OP for diverting this thread somewhat. However, whether HT is of benefit is useful for the OP to know.

Edited February 25, 201412 yr by martin-w

 

Well, your frame rate is irrelevant, my frame rate is far higher than yours with a 3770k at a lower overclock and no HT.

 

 

 

True, but you were the one making the extraordinary claim, a claim that's against conventional wisdom. And as Carl Sagan said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Therefore it's up to you ro provide that evidence.

 

What you may not realise is that there actually is a theoretical basis as to why HT is of no benefit in FSX. However, there is no theoretical basis as far as I know to explain why an app [FSX] not coded to take advantage of HT, would do so.

 

In addition, lets not forget that you yourself admitted that it may well be the increased cache that's providing the benefit not HT. So your claim that HT IS of benefit is a claim you can't make.

 

Nick Needham looked at this question, and carried out the relevant tests to determine if HT was any advantage in FSX. His conclusions were quite definitive that it doesn't. I'm not a fan of everything Nick tells us, but given his technical expertise, and his qualifications, I do trust his opinion in this respect.

 

 

This is what Nick said...

 

 

http://www.simforums.com/forums/the-fsx-computer-system-the-bible-by-nickn_topic46211.html

 

 

Apologies to the OP for diverting this thread somewhat. However, whether HT is of benefit is useful for the OP to know.

How is frame rate irrelevant? Most people set a frame rate cap of 30, so its not irrelevant. I'm sure if the op gets a steady 30 FPS with all sliders maxed he will be happy. As far as your FPS being higher than mine with a lower OC doesnt really matter as longs as you are happy with the visuals and the performance.

 

These are not extraordinary claims. I'm just giving my opinion on the behavior of my system. I see alot of post saying HT does nothing, and I also see post of HT helping with performance. Just because it doesnt work on your system doesnt mean it wont on someone elses. Its similar to the dx10 debate. It boost performance for some and not others.

 

To the OP, if you have the extra money, I would go with the i7 and do your own tests. 

How is frame rate irrelevant? Most people set a frame rate cap of 30, so its not irrelevant.

 

Your response is out of context. Your frame rate is irrelevant in terms of the HT debate. Irrelevant in terms of demonstrating any advantage of HT. It's irrelevant because I, and many other have it off and achieve superior results. It's irrelevant in terms of any presumed benefit of HT because other variables affect frame rate, like your sliders for example, your AA settings for example etc, etc. so in no way does your frame rate tell us anything about the effectiveness of HT. Additionally, HT can't increases frame rate in FSX anyway.

 

 

These are not extraordinary claims. I'm just giving my opinion on the behavior of my system.

 

Yes it is an extraordinary claim. Because...

 

1. FSX has NO CODE to recognise hyperthreading.

 

2. Phil Taylor from Aces [Microsoft] and Adam from Aces, the guys WHO ACTUALLY CODED FSX told us numerous times that FSX does NOT take advantage of HT.

 

3. Also an extraordinary claim, given that you yourself ADMITTED that it could well be the cache that responsible for the improving you see NOT HT.

 

 

I'm just giving my opinion on the behavior of my system.

And thank you very, very much for your input. And when you post your opinion on an open forum, you can expect others to also post there opinion. And sometimes opinions won't agree with yours, especially when Microsoft themselves, the guys who actually coded FSX told us that it can't take advantage of hyperthreading.

 

It's very important that the OP hear both sides of the debate regarding HT, then, the OP can make up his own mind.

 

Your response is out of context. Your frame rate is irrelevant in terms of the HT debate. Irrelevant in terms of demonstrating any advantage of HT. It's irrelevant because I, and many other have it off and achieve superior results. It's irrelevant in terms of any presumed benefit of HT because other variables affect frame rate, like your sliders for example, your AA settings for example etc, etc. so in no way does your frame rate tell us anything about the effectiveness of HT. Additionally, HT can't increases frame rate in FSX anyway.

 

 

 

Yes it is an extraordinary claim. Because...

 

1. FSX has NO CODE to recognise hyperthreading.

 

2. Phil Taylor from Aces [Microsoft] and Adam from Aces, the guys WHO ACTUALLY CODED FSX told us numerous times that FSX does NOT take advantage of HT.

 

3. Also an extraordinary claim, given that you yourself ADMITTED that it could well be the cache that responsible for the improving you see NOT HT.

 

 

 

And thank you very, very much for your input. And when you post your opinion on an open forum, you can expect others to also post there opinion. And sometimes opinions won't agree with yours, especially when Microsoft themselves, the guys who actually coded FSX told us that it can't take advantage of hyperthreading.

 

It's very important that the OP hear both sides of the debate regarding HT, then, the OP can make up his own mind.

Where in any of my posts did I say HT affects framerates? In my first reply I said it will help with the loading of textures. It actually makes alot of sense since the whole point of HT is processing parallel threads on a single core. You keep talking about having superior results like this is a contests. You may get superior results but that all has to do with you setup, like AA, screen res and so forth.

 

No if you want to talk numbers we can. I'm running at gtx 780 and my NI settings are 4x AF, AA 8xS, TS 8x SG @1080P. In FSX all sliders to the right except water which is at high2x and autogen at very dense. If I dont set a cap and just use half refresh in NI my frames never go below 45fps and thats with the PMDG 777.

And depending on where I'm flying its even more. All of this is with HT on, so obviously its not affecting my system like its is yours. On top off all that, at 4.5ghz my temps never go above 68c.

Where in any of my posts did I say HT affects framerates?


Then there's no need to even mention frame rate, as it's not relevant to the discussion regarding HT offering an advantage. So lets stick to the main issue shall we.

 
 

It actually makes alot of sense since the whole point of HT is processing parallel threads on a single core.

 
But then makes zero sense as Microsoft have actually told us that FSX is not coded to take advantage of HT, and thus, cannot benefit from HT. Or were you not around when Phil Taylor from Aces was active on the forum, and in his blog?
 
Why are you ignoring the  words of Microsoft [Aces] when they clearly tell us HT offers no advantage?
 
And lets not forget, you have confirmed that you are unsure if HT offers a benefit yourself.

You said...
 
 

Its definately not placebo effect. It may be the cache or the HT, who knows.

 

 

No if you want to talk numbers we can. I'm running at gtx 780 and my NI settings are 4x AF, AA 8xS, TS 8x SG @1080P. In FSX all sliders to the right except water which is at high2x and autogen at very dense. If I dont set a cap and just use half refresh in NI my frames never go below 45fps and thats with the PMDG 777.

 
 
 
That's great for you, I'm very pleased. But as we said, the point of this discussion is in regard to whether HT offers any benefit, despite the fact that Microsoft [Aces] who coded FSX told us it didn't, and in spite of well respected experts like Nick Needham [with two PhD's] telling us HT doesn't and can't offer any benefit.

 
 

All of this is with HT on, so obviously its not affecting my system like its is yours. On top off all that, at 4.5ghz my temps never go above 68c.

 
 
 
Great news for you... now explain to us in technical terms, how an application like FSX that isn't coded to take advantage of HT, mysteriously does. I'm very interested in hearing your explanation for this. I'm always willing to learn.
 
Here's NickN's explanation again, that you seem not interested in offering a counter argument to. As you can see, FSX cannot even recognise let alone process HT.


 

Intel Hyper Threading: FSX has no code to recognize or process logical core hyper thread. I don't know how many times I have read some 'guru' has come up with an assessment that FSX will make use of or runs better with hyper thread enabled. This person really needs a sign! The REAL terrain 'guru' Adam from Aces as well as Phil Taylor specified years ago that FSX does not support any logical core threading (hyper thread).

 
 
Sorry for the bold type, but you seem to be ignoring the important points. namely that Microsoft made it absolutely clear that HT offered no benefit in FSX.
 
P.S. Even the excellent Avsim FSX guide confirms that HT is of no benefit in FSX.I suggest you read it...


http://forum.avsim.net/files/go/f53601528b857524099a6f536b2a4fea/fsx-hardware-software-guide

If you are ever going to go P3D v2 then save money by going with the 4670k and use that money on a better videocard.

Where in any of my posts did I say HT affects framerates?

 

 

Then there's no need to even mention frame rate, as it's not relevant to the discussion regarding HT offering an advantage. So lets stick to the main issue shall we.

 

 

 

 

 

But then makes zero sense as Microsoft have actually told us that FSX is not coded to take advantage of HT, and thus, cannot benefit from HT. Or were you not around when Phil Taylor from Aces was active on the forum, and in his blog?

 

Why are you ignoring the  words of Microsoft [Aces] when they clearly tell us HT offers no advantage?

 

And lets not forget, you have confirmed that you are unsure if HT offers a benefit yourself.

 

You said...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That's great for you, I'm very pleased. But as we said, the point of this discussion is in regard to whether HT offers any benefit, despite the fact that Microsoft [Aces] who coded FSX told us it didn't, and in spite of well respected experts like Nick Needham [with two PhD's] telling us HT doesn't and can't offer any benefit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Great news for you... now explain to us in technical terms, how an application like FSX that isn't coded to take advantage of HT, mysteriously does. I'm very interested in hearing your explanation for this. I'm always willing to learn.

 

Here's NickN's explanation again, that you seem not interested in offering a counter argument to. As you can see, FSX cannot even recognise let alone process HT.

 

 

 

 

 

Sorry for the bold type, but you seem to be ignoring the important points. namely that Microsoft made it absolutely clear that HT offered no benefit in FSX.

 

P.S. Even the excellent Avsim FSX guide confirms that HT is of no benefit in FSX.I suggest you read it...

 

 

http://forum.avsim.net/files/go/f53601528b857524099a6f536b2a4fea/fsx-hardware-software-guide

I'm done after this, but here is thread with others seeing improvements. http://forum.avsim.net/topic/431283-ht-turned-onmagic/ .  Maybe you can go argue with them too lol. 

 

FPS is very relevant since the OP made it known that he would like to get 18-20 fps with silders to the right. Take it for what its worth.

 

To the OP go with the i7 4770k if money is not any issue, and you can test fsx with or without HT to see if it makes a difference for you because others have seen improvements.

FPS is very relevant since the OP made it known that he would like to get 18-20 fps with silders to the right.

 

 

 

 

But obviously not relevant in terms of the debate you and I are having regarding HT.

 

I'm still waiting for you to answer my questions. Namely...

 

1. Please tell us how, an application that IS NOT CODED TO EVEN RECOGNISE OR PROCESS LOGICAL CORE HYPER THREAD, can magically do so?

 

You do realise that an application has to be coded to take advantage of HT, yes?

 

2. Please explain why you think it's a valid approach to totally ignore Microsoft, when they have told you that it's not possible for FSX to utilise hyper threading?

 

3. please explain to us why, that after admitting that it may well be the bigger cache that's providing an advantage, you still vehemently, and paradoxically maintain that's it's the HT? Isn't that defined as a contradiction?

To the OP go with the i7 4770k if money is not any issue, and you can test fsx with or without HT to see if it makes a difference for you because others have seen improvements.

My response to the OP...

 

Go with the 4770K if you can afford it. Because it's well known that FSX benefits from the much larger cache. If you don't need HT for your other applications, turn it off. I would also recommend the excellent guides by NickN and indeed the Avsim FSX set-up guide, that both highlight how HT is of zero benefit in FSX.

I should also add, that in addition to the 4770K not benefiting FSX in terms of HT [because FSX isn't coded to allow it] but the larger cache of the 4770K being known to benefit FSX...

 

That somewhat less definitively, it is said that the 4770K may well overclock better than the 4670K, simply because Intel bin the better chips on the wafer for the higher models. I can't vouch for the veracity of that statement 100%, but worth considering.